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Old 14 Aug 2005, 23:25 (Ref:1382327)   #1
Matt H
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Matt H should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
The IPO and STEWARDS have to GO !~ !

heres the link to the article, with some seleected quotes places here


http://foxsports.news.com.au/story/0...-23770,00.html

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Ambrose and fellow Ford driver Craig Lowndes (sixth) have every right to feel robbed of their chances to win today after receiving drive through penalties when leading the first race by a comfortable margin.

The drivers were deemed to have exceeded the 40km/h pit lane speed limit, but later proved with their own computer data to have driven well below the camera's recorded speed.

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Later protestations to race stewards, who could have reinstated the pair at the top of the results, proved fruitless.
Now, what is going on, why didnt the stewards reverse the decision seeing as it was proven to be a wrong decision ??

I strongly beleive that for v8's we need to adopt the f1 system where most incidents are reviewed post race, to have a hearing where both sides are equally represented. The current system is flawwed immensly.
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Old 15 Aug 2005, 03:07 (Ref:1382346)   #2
mac
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mac should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridmac should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridmac should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Just because they were on the limiter going down pitlane does not mean they did not exceed the limit on the entry - which is what I believe was judged to be the case.
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Old 15 Aug 2005, 03:20 (Ref:1382350)   #3
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Originally Posted by mac
Just because they were on the limiter going down pitlane does not mean they did not exceed the limit on the entry - which is what I believe was judged to be the case.

Correct when both these guys were told about the black flags the first thing both of them asked on the radios was "what is it for". I heard somebody tell Ambrose that it was speeding on the entery to pit lane. I must say both of them were very calm on the radio no swearing or anything very professional.
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Old 15 Aug 2005, 03:23 (Ref:1382351)   #4
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Just because they were on the limiter going down pitlane does not mean they did not exceed the limit on the entry - which is what I believe was judged to be the case
Correct, the teams data only shows that the speed trace drops down to or below the required speed not when/where in relation to pit entry.
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Old 15 Aug 2005, 03:29 (Ref:1382353)   #5
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It justs looks bad with the 2 leading cars and no one else pinged for it. Everything should be made transparent with the technology available now.
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Old 15 Aug 2005, 03:35 (Ref:1382356)   #6
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mac should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridmac should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridmac should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
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Originally Posted by vatuloa
It justs looks bad with the 2 leading cars and no one else pinged for it. Everything should be made transparent with the technology available now.
If the two leading cars are the only cars that do it, then so be it.

Seemed pretty straightforward to me.

Officialdom does a lot of stupid things in this game, but you cannot blame them for everything.
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Old 15 Aug 2005, 08:57 (Ref:1382447)   #7
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This is the same issue as the other thread about the camera.... despite the assertions that the result could be changed, there is no precedent, and indeed not formula or prescription to remove race time from a car and change the placings.

It seems easy to be able to add time to a car, but unless I am very much mistaken, other than this race I dont know how you can adjust race times up and down in the current V8Supercar regulations

I have an interesting ponderance though... as I understand it... the non-laser speed detector used at Oran Park at the weekend, is supposed to be used in a defined range of operation, in order to reduce the risk of stray return signals from other vehicles or objects.

So for example, if you point one of these guns at a certain angle, and the signal bounces back, you may in fact miss your target at speed, and pick up the following car, or indeed a tree that has been in the ground for 20 years, also travelling at 41 km/h!!

There are police guidelines in place for the use of measuring speed with a non-laser style radar gun.... which requires that the equipment is calibrated to manufacturer standards... so 41 km/h is indeed 41 km/h, not some other speed....

The issue here is said to be one of calibration and installation.... with one suggestion made that the equipment currently in use at circuits such as Oran Park have not been calibrated within the guidelines of the maker, and indeed the operators in pitlane may not be certified in the use of said equipment by that manufacturer....

All this rubbish goes away if they cut timing lines into the pitlane, and let the Dorian Data-1 system do what it should be capable of doing!!
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Old 15 Aug 2005, 09:20 (Ref:1382467)   #8
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retro should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridretro should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Someone had a time penality added after the race on Sunday (I think)
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Old 15 Aug 2005, 09:31 (Ref:1382471)   #9
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bestfit should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridbestfit should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Steve Owen had 40 seconds added for a jump start. The 40 secs was deemed to be the equivalent of a drive through as the offence was not addressed during the race. I believe Andrew Jones also had a drivethrough for pit lane speeding.
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Old 15 Aug 2005, 09:54 (Ref:1382495)   #10
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Ambrose in particular should have been more cautious, he had a handy lead and could easily afford to lose some time in pitlane and still come out in front. There was no need for optimum efficiency at pit entry or pit exit. Having said that, it is easy to make judgements after the event when I am not the one in the "heat of battle". Maybe it is one for his engineer to remind him about in future rounds.

It did liven up what could have been a couple of one-sided races though!
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Old 15 Aug 2005, 09:55 (Ref:1382497)   #11
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But the R1 and R2 results make no mention of the 40 second penalty.

Are the AVESCO results actually wrong in not incorporating this time penalty???
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Old 15 Aug 2005, 10:42 (Ref:1382543)   #12
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bestfit should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridbestfit should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Speaking of jump starts I was very disappointed in Mark Skaiffe's comments in the post race 1 interview. He stated that the drive through for the jump start was ludicrous because he had already been penalised by stuffing up his start and losing a dozen or so places. I'm sorry Mr Skaiffe but the 2 incidents are unrelated. If you stuff the start you penalise yourself, if you jump the start you are penalised by the IPO. If you jump the start and also stuff the start up, you cop both penaties.
For the record, I don't believe that he did jump the start, but that should be debated with the IPO. To suggest that the penalty was invalid because of the time he lost due to his lousy start I found amateurish in the extreme, and not worthy of a driver with his experience.
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Old 15 Aug 2005, 11:52 (Ref:1382630)   #13
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or my personal favorite. skaife three wide tries to drive around the corner without leaving room and ends up in the dirt "Then I decided to go down the outside of them all into Turn 3 and (Jason) Bargwanna didn’t see that I was there and he turned into the car and spun me around. I would have thought he should have been penalized"

Well no mark. surely you learnt at EC that you have to leave room for the car on the inside.
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Old 15 Aug 2005, 12:06 (Ref:1382658)   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTRMagic
But the R1 and R2 results make no mention of the 40 second penalty.

Are the AVESCO results actually wrong in not incorporating this time penalty???
These are not the 'AVESCO' results. These are the time sheets produced by the official timers. If the penalty is applied after that time sheets are signed off, which is entirely possible, are the timers under any obligation update the timesheets as posted on the web? Some do I know, but do they have to?

And I thought Alex Davison got one of the penalties?
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Old 15 Aug 2005, 20:26 (Ref:1383071)   #15
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I was led to believe the timesheets were updated after any change from the 'AVESCO' magic.... if they arent, then the data is certainly unreliable.
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Old 15 Aug 2005, 21:42 (Ref:1383139)   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt H
The drivers were deemed to have exceeded the 40km/h pit lane speed limit, but later proved with their own computer data to have driven well below the camera's recorded speed.
The team's data does not matter. The teams do not officiate the race; the officials do.
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Old 15 Aug 2005, 22:55 (Ref:1383187)   #17
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mac should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridmac should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridmac should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
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Originally Posted by GTRMagic
All this rubbish goes away if they cut timing lines into the pitlane, and let the Dorian Data-1 system do what it should be capable of doing!!
What is to stop Driver X and Driver Y coming into the pits nose-to-tail, Driver Y's stop is fractionally quicker and as he trundles down the pitlane, approaching Driver X's box Driver X accelerates out of the stop to 50km/h just to maintain track position - he then jumps on the anchors and reduces speed to 20km/h to ensure his average speed is 40km/h?

There is too much variation in a system like that - if my understanding of the system you are proposing is up to scratch.
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Old 16 Aug 2005, 00:44 (Ref:1383221)   #18
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Originally Posted by GTRMagic
This is the same issue as the other thread about the camera.... despite the assertions that the result could be changed, there is no precedent, and indeed not formula or prescription to remove race time from a car and change the placings.

It seems easy to be able to add time to a car, but unless I am very much mistaken, other than this race I dont know how you can adjust race times up and down in the current V8Supercar regulations

I have an interesting ponderance though... as I understand it... the non-laser speed detector used at Oran Park at the weekend, is supposed to be used in a defined range of operation, in order to reduce the risk of stray return signals from other vehicles or objects.

So for example, if you point one of these guns at a certain angle, and the signal bounces back, you may in fact miss your target at speed, and pick up the following car, or indeed a tree that has been in the ground for 20 years, also travelling at 41 km/h!!

There are police guidelines in place for the use of measuring speed with a non-laser style radar gun.... which requires that the equipment is calibrated to manufacturer standards... so 41 km/h is indeed 41 km/h, not some other speed....

The issue here is said to be one of calibration and installation.... with one suggestion made that the equipment currently in use at circuits such as Oran Park have not been calibrated within the guidelines of the maker, and indeed the operators in pitlane may not be certified in the use of said equipment by that manufacturer....

All this rubbish goes away if they cut timing lines into the pitlane, and let the Dorian Data-1 system do what it should be capable of doing!!
If your assertions are correct, then why was it that only two cars were pinged? Systematic error from incorrect or non-existant calibration would certainly be much higher...Even random error from an "untrained" users or interference would be much higher than 6%...

As Mac said, the Dorian system would measure AVERAGE speed, not instantaneous speed, which is the one you want to measure for SAFETY!

...and exactly how did the teams measure the speed of a sliding car??? I suppose their data also shows them doing 100 leaving the pit bay (as the wheels spin)

A tree doing 41km/h in pit lane Now I have heard everything...
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Old 16 Aug 2005, 01:03 (Ref:1383227)   #19
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Originally Posted by lcfp2297
A tree doing 41km/h in pit lane Now I have heard everything...
I think you will find that it is quite possible for a radar gun to measure speed on a supposdly stationary object.

I know its opening up a can of worms but surely the IPO could allow 10% for error. It seems most of these guys are attempting to comply with the rules and I think the difference between 40 and 44 kmh in the pit lane as a safety issue doesnt rank along side the way these guys 'race' around the track under safety car conditions to catch up to the back of the pack. ala. Todd Kelly earlier in the year.
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Old 16 Aug 2005, 01:32 (Ref:1383234)   #20
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Originally Posted by twinwebbers
I think you will find that it is quite possible for a radar gun to measure speed on a supposdly stationary object.

I know its opening up a can of worms but surely the IPO could allow 10% for error. It seems most of these guys are attempting to comply with the rules and I think the difference between 40 and 44 kmh in the pit lane as a safety issue doesnt rank along side the way these guys 'race' around the track under safety car conditions to catch up to the back of the pack. ala. Todd Kelly earlier in the year.
Granted, but to get exactly 41 km/h on a stationary object is a little too coincidental...

OK, so we change the rules to say 40km/h, but you will nott be penalised until 44...so all the teams set the speedlimiter to 43.9 and we have a hole in the bucket dear 'liza...

Or we say that they can go up to 44km/h in the first and last 10 m of pit lane, so drivers brake later, speed up sooner...and we have a hole in the bucket...

You set the upper limit, and police it...You set the exact point and police it...

The drivers could lower the risk of a drive through by slowing down sooner, or speeding up later...

Then again, the teams could also set the speed limiter lower...

But no, lets maximise risk for a few milli-seconds that only has a flow on effect in one or two races per year...

...and if 44 is OK, why not 48? It's like the Vic wipe off five campaign, eventually your stationary...

Cheers
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Old 16 Aug 2005, 01:41 (Ref:1383235)   #21
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Sure you can make the argument that teams will attempt to take advantage of the 10% rule but aren't we all big boys and girls.

The rule is 40 kmh.
If you break it once by less than 10% the IPO gives you a warning.
Do it again and your pinged.

A simple allowance for human error.
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Old 16 Aug 2005, 01:54 (Ref:1383238)   #22
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Originally Posted by lcfp2297
Or we say that they can go up to 44km/h in the first and last 10 m of pit lane
Something along these lines actually makes the most sense as after all, the idea of a pitlane speed limit is safety right? whats so safe about asking a car to go from 150km/h to 40km/h within a space of about 40 metres? Natural reaction is going to be 'slow down sooner' right? well what about Oran Park or Pukekhoe ( ?? wherever it was that Skaife nailed Ingall while he was on the way in ) where you physically have to get out of the way at pace on your way in or you'll end up with another car in your boot?
Why not have a slow down run in area where you have to be at say about 60 with a little room for error and not that heavily policed, but then once you hit the 'red zone' its 40 and nothing else will do - they have no excuses then for running into the lane too hot and even if you go right to the limit of the space available, a slide into the red zone just wont happen when you're doing 60 rather than 150 - there has to be time to get down to speed that still promotes enough encouragement to get the last 10th out of your in lap - after all you get 200m to come down to speed on the streets with a new speed zone, so why not pitlane?
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Old 16 Aug 2005, 02:02 (Ref:1383240)   #23
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Originally Posted by twinwebbers
Sure you can make the argument that teams will attempt to take advantage of the 10% rule but aren't we all big boys and girls.

The rule is 40 kmh.
If you break it once by less than 10% the IPO gives you a warning.
Do it again and your pinged.

A simple allowance for human error.
That's different to what you said above...

The teams already take advantage of every rule, so the "big boys and girls" just doesn't stick...When changing ANY rule, on MUST look for loop-holes...

Assuming the single warning approach, at Oran Park where they only come into the pits once...the IPO's warning is irrelevant...

I agree with you for multi-stop races..but then it gets too confusing...

SRabbit, again, focusing on Oran Park, where would the slow-down section be? Would it be BEFORE the current 40 line (to maintain the safety of Pit bay 32...)?
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Old 16 Aug 2005, 02:35 (Ref:1383251)   #24
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Why not have something that can accurately measure the speed of the car crossing the line.
The cars already have a transponder to measure jump starts (don't they).

Measure this twice, close together, determine if the speed is greater than the limit.

It they are speeding, shoot up some spikes out of the ground (like the ones in car parks) and that will act as a major deterrent!

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Old 16 Aug 2005, 02:48 (Ref:1383254)   #25
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Originally Posted by Matt H
but later proved with their own computer data to have driven well below the camera's recorded speed.
And of course computer data cant be fiddled with as it's being downloaded.

Just like a car speedo has a tolerance so would the sensors on race cars which operate in a much tougher enviroment than your average road car.
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