The Porsche vs Ferrari (or Badger vs brielga) thread

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by Dario911

Porsche will have to work to gain more speed, they can't hope to win with this pace

I dont think there is any more speed in the Porsche , its maxed out .

[AndrewF31]

That Ferrari looks great with those evil eyes. As I said last night, that car will look great screaming down Mulsanne straight in the dark.

[arakis]

I still tink it is rediculus that this years porsche with the new spliter, and 5hp more is slower then last years porsche

[J.C.]

The AF Corse Ferrari, and also the Risi Ferrari made some wonderful moves early on in the race. Some were very close, but the passing was awsome.

The Porsche 997 is a very reliable car.Of course we all know it lacks the speed. The only thing that will hurt a top Porsche 997 team, is going a lap down. Because it is very hard to make up. The #45 stayed steady 1 lap down, for most of the race.

Those BMW's are fast. They were awful at last years Le Mans 24, intersting to see how they will do at this years Le Mans 24.

Im very happy for Team Oreca, Justice has been served. I have all of there Oreca Vipers diecast cars in 1:18 (man I miss those vipers)

[Fogelhund]

The main issue with Porsche in the ALMS, is that they've only got one all pro top team car. With BMW and Corvette having two cars, and Ferrari having Risi + ESM pro... Porsche just isn't going to be able to win the manufacturers or team championship.

[arakis]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

The main issue with Porsche in the ALMS, is that they've only got one all pro top team car. With BMW and Corvette having two cars, and Ferrari having Risi + ESM pro... Porsche just isn't going to be able to win the manufacturers or team championship.

after yesterdays performance it wouldnt help them if they had 10 full factory teams, being 2-4s off the pace almost the whole race, just doesent cut it in gt2/gte anymore, where the differences are measure in tenths.

the competition is so tough that more often than not the fastest car with no isues wins, and there are at least 5 cars faster then porsche right now, and hoping something will happen to all of them just isn't realistic.

my theory is that the engine is at the end of its development, being 15 years old now, and for the endurance races they really have to tone it down.

That and the ACO regulations favor larger engines, while the hp is equated, larger engines have a better torque curve, and thus more powerfull engines.

It also doesent help that BMWs are alowed to build cars as they like, totaly disregarding the rulebook, well not totaly, they seem to have focused on the part where the ACO reserve the right to modify the rules to suit them.

my guess is that after long beac IMSA/ACO will give porsche weigth and restrictor brakes, somehow just before Le Mans.......

[Fogelhund]

The main issue with Porsche in the ALMS, is that they've only got one all pro top team car. With BMW and Corvette having two cars, and Ferrari having Risi + ESM pro... Porsche just isn't going to be able to win the manufacturers or team championship.

[arakis]

http://tentenths.com/forum/showpost....postcount=4630

http://tentenths.com/forum/showpost....postcount=4632

a bit repetitive, dont you think

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by arakis

http://tentenths.com/forum/showpost....postcount=4630

http://tentenths.com/forum/showpost....postcount=4632

a bit repetitive, dont you think

I was just trying to make my point.

Really have no idea how that happened.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by arakis

after yesterdays performance it wouldnt help them if they had 10 full factory teams, being 2-4s off the pace almost the whole race, just doesent cut it in gt2/gte anymore, where the differences are measure in tenths.

the competition is so tough that more often than not the fastest car with no isues wins, and there are at least 5 cars faster then porsche right now, and hoping something will happen to all of them just isn't realistic.

my theory is that the engine is at the end of its development, being 15 years old now, and for the endurance races they really have to tone it down.

That and the ACO regulations favor larger engines, while the hp is equated, larger engines have a better torque curve, and thus more powerfull engines.

It also doesent help that BMWs are alowed to build cars as they like, totaly disregarding the rulebook, well not totaly, they seem to have focused on the part where the ACO reserve the right to modify the rules to suit them.

my guess is that after long beac IMSA/ACO will give porsche weigth and restrictor brakes, somehow just before Le Mans.......

Really they were only about a second off the pace, and able to stay with the main group most of the time. I think we need to wait to see how performance is on other tracks. I'm not sure I agree on the development of the engine... and isn't the BMW the same 4.0l as the Porsche?

[arakis]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Really they were only about a second off the pace, and able to stay with the main group most of the time. I think we need to wait to see how performance is on other tracks. I'm not sure I agree on the development of the engine... and isn't the BMW the same 4.0l as the Porsche?

yeah but BMWs 4l engine was designed as such while porsche was designed as a 3.2l, and 4l is pushing it to the max.
and no they were at least 2s of the pace 90% of the time, trust me I was paying close attention, while BMWs and AF corsa were runinng regular 2:03s-2:04s porsche was doing 2:05s:2:06s, and the only the reason they stayed with the lead group for the first couple of hours was because of the exesive yelow flags and the new pass by, wave by regulations.

[Guardian]

edit: nevermind

[Dario911]

Originally Posted by arakis

yeah but BMWs 4l engine was designed as such while porsche was designed as a 3.2l, and 4l is pushing it to the max.
and no they were at least 2s of the pace 90% of the time, trust me I was paying close attention, while BMWs and AF corsa were runinng regular 2:03s-2:04s porsche was doing 2:05s:2:06s, and the only the reason they stayed with the lead group for the first couple of hours was because of the exesive yelow flags and the new pass by, wave by regulations.

Porsche has never been fast in Sebring, in the last years, because this track is not in accord with 911 characteristics. They always have grainig, because the Porsche suffers the concrete, typical of some Sebring track parts.
Engine is not the trouble. In fact, the next generation of the RSR will have a new engine, derived from the one of the current RSR. Obviously, revised.
So, you have to consider Porsche is the most penalized car, for the engine power. BMW, Corvette and Ferrari are more powerful, while Porsche has only 455 hp.
If you consider all this, with troubles related to Sebring, for Porsche, you find the reason to this bad performance.
If the next Porsches (street and race versions) will have the engine based on the current 4.0l boxer, it means the engine is very good, and it's not the cause of any trouble.
This engine has been deeply revised in confront of the old unity derived from the GT1. Now, there are more differences than how you could think.

[arakis]

Originally Posted by Dario911

Porsche has never been fast in Sebring, in the last years, because this track is not in accord with 911 characteristics. They always have grainig, because the Porsche suffers the concrete, typical of some Sebring track parts.
Engine is not the trouble. In fact, the next generation of the RSR will have a new engine, derived from the one of the current RSR. Obviously, revised.
So, you have to consider Porsche is the most penalized car, for the engine power. BMW, Corvette and Ferrari are more powerful, while Porsche has only 455 hp.
If you consider all this, with troubles related to Sebring, for Porsche, you find the reason to this bad performance.
If the next Porsches (street and race versions) will have the engine based on the current 4.0l boxer, it means the engine is very good, and it's not the cause of any trouble.
This engine has been deeply revised in confront of the old unity derived from the GT1. Now, there are more differences than how you could think.

the cylindar spacing is the same, and that meens much less beef between cylinders when you go from 3.2-4l, whitch is fine for road use but for racing...
BTW next gen. RSR will not use the 4l. gt1 engine, but the new dfi engine probably also at 4l.

all this can't explain why was porsche slower then last year, they them selves say there has been extensive development done on the car. and it can't explain why bergmaister was driving same lap times as Sellers, witch in my opinion is imposible.

[arakis]

btw does anyone know why porsche got only 8pts in ILMC manuf, since 6th and 7th should have given them 13pts

[Dead-Eye]

Originally Posted by arakis

btw does anyone know why porsche got only 8pts in ILMC manuf, since 6th and 7th should have given them 13pts

I vaguely recall hearing on RLM that the Lizards aren't registered to score ILMC manufacturer points.

[arakis]

Originally Posted by Dead-Eye

I vaguely recall hearing on RLM that the Lizards aren't registered to score ILMC manufacturer points.

but then how did they get 8pts, since next porsche after the lizards is the proton car in 13,14th placem witch only brings 1pt

[dxk1]

Originally Posted by arakis

but then how did they get 8pts, since next porsche after the lizards is the proton car in 13,14th placem witch only brings 1pt

It's a miracle! Hand of God stuff, etc.

DK

[NaBUru38]

Points have some sort of relation with overall finishing places.

[Dario911]

The main problem for the Porsche was the set-up. The car was not so stable, the same as the past year. Engine is not the main trouble, because the car would have not been less fast than past year. If the engine has been improved, it's clear it's not the cause of the Porsche lack of a good pace.
Set-up and graining are the main trouble, expecially on the Lizard #45.
If the engine would have been the main trouble, Sellers would have not been as fast as Bergmeister, beeing penalized himself for the lack of the engine.
Maybe, Yokohama have worked better on Sebring tarmac, than Michelin tyres.
I remember Bergmeister, past year, complained very much for the bad tyres performance, and the lack of a good set-up for this kind of track.
Anyway, RSR is at its last year of career, so it will be necessary to have the new GT3 RSR generation, to remain on top.

[Dead-Eye]

Originally Posted by arakis

but then how did they get 8pts, since next porsche after the lizards is the proton car in 13,14th placem witch only brings 1pt

Both GTE classes are combined for manufacturer points. We'd get to 8 if we assume that only the Lizards 45 was entered for ILMC points. That would get 7 for finishing sixth, + 1 for the Proton car which should be scored 12th (I think it's 15th on laps completed, but three of the cars that did more laps didn't finish).
Somehow I don't believe that myself

edit: Maybe cars entered for the full ILMC get priority? So the Proton car as the only full ILMC Porsche is scored, plus the highest finishing ALMS Porsche?

[911targa]

Originally Posted by Dario911

Anyway, RSR is at its last year of career, so it will be necessary to have the new GT3 RSR generation, to remain on top.

really hope so,but 991 wont make dubut until this September,so i guess RS and Cup wont arrive until late 2012 and RSR wont be on the grid until 2013

anyway can anyone tell me the official partner of GT3 RSR's cluch/gearbox,so far almost all the 4.0L RSR regular teams have suffer such kind of problems:Proton,IMSA,ProSpeed and Falken

[gwyllion]

Porsche make their own gearbox. ZF Sachs might provide the clutch, but I am not sure of that.

[arakis]

Originally Posted by 911targa

really hope so,but 991 wont make dubut until this September,so i guess RS and Cup wont arrive until late 2012 and RSR wont be on the grid until 2013

anyway can anyone tell me the official partner of GT3 RSR's cluch/gearbox,so far almost all the 4.0L RSR regular teams have suffer such kind of problems:Proton,IMSA,ProSpeed and Falken

from what i knowits inhouse build gearbox, somehow buti don't know how it is closly related to the RS spyders geaarbox, this could be a rummor i am unsure?

this new RS spyder gearbox was introducet in 2009 i belive

[Xtractor]

Long time lurker, first time poster.

Talking of F v P. Here's a really good documentary about the great ferrari v Porsche duel in last years 24hr, loads of lead changes and a narrow squeak at the finish.