Genuine feeder series for touring cars?

[EdLeake]

What would you guys and the industry consider genuines feeder series for the likes of BTCC, WTCC, GT racing etc?

[EdLeake]

Any of these:

Britcar Production S1?
Britcar 24hr (as a driver)?
Dunlops Sport Maxx Cup?
Nurburgring 24hr?

[duke_toaster]

For BTCC, most come through Clio Cup or SEAT Leon Supercopa.

[GBRM]

Originally Posted by EdLeake

What would you guys and the industry consider genuines feeder series for the likes of BTCC, WTCC, GT racing etc?

Having lots of money.

[EdLeake]

Originally Posted by GBRM

Having lots of money.

Surely raw talent accounts for more at this level, I can't see any of the supported teams (front runners) charging their drivers, surely most PAY drivers a salary and/or bonus scheme?

In fact wouldn't it even be possible that some midfield competitve teams didn't pay drivers and nore request money from 'good' drivers?

[GBRM]

Sorry if my response was a bit sharp, was meant slightly tongue in cheek but I do stand by the fact if you've not got money then you ain't gonna get far.

I think all three series you mention have very different feeder series (maybe some crossover between them) and If raw talent applied more then you wouldn't have the drivers that we currently have in the UK based series.

Yes, there are some very very good drivers but there's also some very very average ones (who are there because of money or sponsorship) and there are some who have the talent who will never get there because of lack of money making the step up from Leons/Clios/GTs (for BTCC) and Ginettas/Britcar/Porsche Cup (GTs).

As for the WTCC I think the main feeder series are the other national championships Touring Car Championships (BTCC, etc) and I think if you look at the top 20 drivers in WTCC they are all excellent.

[EdLeake]

Fair enough.

As you say, I also consider the WTCC to have a higher class of driver than say BTCC which has some very questionable 'talent'.

Sponsorship is often the case of 'rich parents company' and for most of us, that isn't a possibility.

I'm hugely competitive and not going to let the small fact of not having 100k in my pocket perturb me. :lol:

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by GBRM

Sorry if my response was a bit sharp, was meant slightly tongue in cheek but I do stand by the fact if you've not got money then you ain't gonna get far.

No you were right. Money has more to do with teams then tallent. The team owner has the money to start the team and drive. Team owner might find a few small sponsors but hopes to find a pay driver.

Pay driver means the drive pays or has a sponsor to bring to the team so this driver can have a seat or be co-driver for a race.

Lots of ppl have great tallent but no money or way of getting money. What happens to these drivers? Go to work like the rest of us.

To make it to the big leagues you must have money or a family with money to pay your way up though the ranks.

Most professional drives do not make much money at all. Less then the average person on this forum. We had another thread on this a while ago

[gregw]

In answer to the original question. Look at the driver's.

Current touring and sports car drivers have a solid single seater background. Most moved in to tin tops because they lacked money and or opportunity. The general viewing public would be surprised to know that there are BTCC drivers who have full time - non racing - jobs.

Go to a race meeting. Take a look at the cars the drivers turn up in. You'd be amazed at the utter rubbish many racers drive. It's not by choice!

It's a commercial reality: extremely talented drivers with a proven track record pay for drives. That's how motorsport works. There just isn't enough money for everyone to make a living.

Unless you are in your early twenties with a solid and successful racing background, it's almost impossible to get good drives without your own funding/sponsorship in place. Even with money and talent it's tough to get good drives.

I don't want to appear unduly negative, it's just that if you don't already have a track record the only realistic way to go racing is to pay for it yourself.

Ed. Some assumptions:

- you don't have a racing background;
- your ultimate goal is to drive in one of the series you have mentioned,
- you don't have the budget for a Formula Ford campaign.

I took a look at your website. You are planning to race an old Honda road car? Don't. With the exception of 'enthusiasts' it's not taken seriously and is too low profile. How many drivers have graduated from racing old japanese road cars to the series you aspire?

Instead, look at the Caterham Academy. They might only have 120hp, but it's credible racing with a good profile. If you can afford to properly race the Honda, you can afford the Academy. The cars are easy to spanner, cheap to transport and consumables are cheap. It comes as a package, so you can focus on racing.

In your situation you need as much racing experience as possible. You need to find out ASAP if you have got what it takes. 5 years ago no one had heard of Guy Harrington. Then, he won the Academy and is now driving a 430 in British GT.

I've been out of the UK for some time, there may be other options with a similar profile. Ginetta comes to mind. There may be others I'm not aware of.

If I got it wrong and your goal is all about enjoying the Honda cars you love, ignore what I've said and have lots of fun doing it.

[AU N EGL]

Good Luck Ed.


Or start an on line business. Sell things on ebay or something. There are companies that will drop ship products for you.

You make good money that goes into racing while you still work a full time job to pay your bills.

[andy97]

Originally Posted by EdLeake

Surely raw talent accounts for more at this level, I can't see any of the supported teams (front runners) charging their drivers, surely most PAY drivers a salary and/or bonus scheme?

In fact wouldn't it even be possible that some midfield competitve teams didn't pay drivers and nore request money from 'good' drivers?

I bet that the vast majority of the BTCC drivers these days have to pay for their drives somehow - bring sponsorship or a rich dad. Its the way of the world, Sadly. There may be a few who are supposedly being paid but I bet that this means that they bring a sponsor along who contributes, say, £250K to the team budget but £50K of that is then "paid" to the driver.

[EdLeake]

Well the current build budget is 30k running a stock block, so a pretty serious chassis/car when you consider ~75% of the work is done by myself and a few pit mechanics (I pay their fuel and feed them) who are volunteers, that 25% is worth 30k.

The 'old' Honda isn't that old, ok it's just out of the 5 year window for it to be considered a current race car but it's still applicable to a number of higher profile series such as Britcar.

I'll take a look at the Caterham Academy, I do love that setup of ultra light and rwd.

Like most other racers this is out of my own pocket, fortunatley even as a young 'lad' I earn a very respectable income (virtually double my age) so can afford £1,000-1,500 per race. I believe that kind of budget with a volunteer backed team (3-4 'unpaid' pit members) is quite respectable, obviously not in the BTCC or support class worlds, am I right or completely off the boil?

[EdLeake]

Originally Posted by andy97

I bet that the vast majority of the BTCC drivers these days have to pay for their drives somehow - bring sponsorship or a rich dad. Its the way of the world, Sadly. There may be a few who are supposedly being paid but I bet that this means that they bring a sponsor along who contributes, say, £250K to the team budget but £50K of that is then "paid" to the driver.

Interesting, but that's pretty much what I expected - a primary sponsor subs both driver and team.

Same for a manufacturer team?

[EdLeake]

Originally Posted by gregw

Go to a race meeting. Take a look at the cars the drivers turn up in. You'd be amazed at the utter rubbish many racers drive. It's not by choice!

What sort of things do they drive?

[GBRM]

Originally Posted by EdLeake

Well the current build budget is 30k running a stock block, so a pretty serious chassis/car when you consider ~75% of the work is done by myself and a few pit mechanics (I pay their fuel and feed them) who are volunteers, that 25% is worth 30k.

The 'old' Honda isn't that old, ok it's just out of the 5 year window for it to be considered a current race car but it's still applicable to a number of higher profile series such as Britcar.

I'll take a look at the Caterham Academy, I do love that setup of ultra light and rwd.

Like most other racers this is out of my own pocket, fortunatley even as a young 'lad' I earn a very respectable income (virtually double my age) so can afford £1,000-1,500 per race. I believe that kind of budget with a volunteer backed team (3-4 'unpaid' pit members) is quite respectable, obviously not in the BTCC or support class worlds, am I right or completely off the boil?

With that kind of money do you fancy sponsoring me??

[andy97]

Originally Posted by EdLeake

Like most other racers this is out of my own pocket, fortunatley even as a young 'lad' I earn a very respectable income (virtually double my age) so can afford £1,000-1,500 per race. I believe that kind of budget with a volunteer backed team (3-4 'unpaid' pit members) is quite respectable, obviously not in the BTCC or support class worlds, am I right or completely off the boil?

Its a very good club racing budget but not much more. I think that I'm right in saying that a season in Renault Clios (a good feeder series) costs about £35K with one of the regular teams, PLUS the car purchase, PLUS accident damage repair costs (of which there is a lot), PLUS testing.

[GBRM]

Originally Posted by andy97

Its a very good club racing budget but not much more. I think that I'm right in saying that a season in Renault Clios (a good feeder series) costs about £35K with one of the regular teams, PLUS the car purchase, PLUS accident damage repair costs (of which there is a lot), PLUS testing.

You might want to add a bit more to that including the PLUSs and if you're look at F3 with a top team these days you're looking at that amount times 14.

[EdLeake]

I spoke to one of the Clio teams at Donnington and they suggeted 80k for their year budget, they managed to secure sponsorship which was paying for most of it ... and they were near the back of the grid.

[EdLeake]

Originally Posted by andy97

Its a very good club racing budget but not much more.

Is Britcar considered Club or National?

My goal is Britcar because a) it's competitive and b) attractive to sponsors, naturally the step up is considerable and will take a lot of effort, time and funds.

[Al Weyman]

Spedeworth Banger Racing would be a good place to learn the basics?

[EdLeake]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Spedeworth Banger Racing would be a good place to learn the basics?

I'm not sure if that comment was meant with good intentions but I'm comfortably past the basics, thank you.

Naturally every man thinks he's the best driver since time began, I'm not suggesting that but I do know I'm quick, easily quick enough for club level and quite frankly I can only get quicker because I can see where I am wrong/slow - and that's often the biggest hurdle for a racer.

I guess my approach for the next 12 months will be to prove my worth, see what real media coverage it brings and then approach sponsors/partners/affiliates based on that.

[andy97]

Originally Posted by EdLeake

Is Britcar considered Club or National?

My goal is Britcar because a) it's competitive and b) attractive to sponsors, naturally the step up is considerable and will take a lot of effort, time and funds.

Very good question. I'm sure that James Tucker thinks that its International. In reality its probably a special case due to the relatively unique nature of the race format; somewhere between National & Club & there are teams/ drivers taking part with Brit GT experience. Its not that competitive in Class 1 unless you have a Mosler & Class 3 & 4 have relatively low entries. That leaves Class 2.

The 24 hour race is the jewell in the crown but I doubt whether any national or club racing in the UK is attractive to sponsors unless a) its BTCC b) you own the company or c) you have sponsors that have a chosen market that are used to watching staellite TV at odd times of the night.

If you want competitive racing in your Honda, try LMA EuroSaloons & see how you get on. You can mix that with some Britcar PS1 & even the 24 hr race as well.

[EdLeake]

Originally Posted by andy97

If you want competitive racing in your Honda, try LMA EuroSaloons & see how you get on. You can mix that with some Britcar PS1 & even the 24 hr race as well.

LMA does look interesting and I do intend on racing in it later this year, same goes for PS1.

This year will be car setup, testing and proving mainly.

Next year I already have a 24 hour seat pencilled in for the Nurburg24 and potentially Spa and Silverstone.

The Ring 24 shows how strong motorsport following in on the continent, there were some 800-900,000 spectators at this years event alone.

[Ian Sowman]

But conversely in this country the number of paying public for the Silverstone 24 hours has struggled to make it into three figures.

[EdLeake]

Originally Posted by Ian Sowman

But conversely in this country the number of paying public for the Silverstone 24 hours has struggled to make it into three figures.

Shocking really.

What's wrong with Britain? Actually, don't even start to answer that one... :lol:

Time to emigrate.