Touring Cars the greatest era?

[Pierre]

Andrew, i can see your point on this one ,but being disabled on my behalf, precludes this from happening, the way it will go will to one of my grandsons when they are old enough .....

[Andrew Kitson]

Do you have any photos of it Pierre? Would like to see it.
What is the history of it?

[Pierre]

Andrew, yes i do have some photo's of the car ,i will down size them and e-mail them to you....Regards Pierre....... It history is shown in the photo,s......

[Chris Griffin]

This is around my favourite era. Late 70s to Late 80s. All depends on your age I think. Modern BTCC does nothing for me. BTW I have more of these around if anyone wants info. This particular prog has all the TT practice and results sheets in it.

[Peter Mallett]

This thread is interesting too.

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...threadid=53192

[KA]

Originally posted by gfm

Frankly the BTCC stuff we see now is no more exciting to watch than a normal weekday at Hyde Park corner in the wet.
I can't quite get over this from the point of view of spectators - many thousands (30K ?) go to watch Vauxhalls and ...... Vauxhalls, yet British GT1/GT2 which had Porsche, Lister, McLaren a few short years ago Ferraris, Lambos, Saleens today, could or can bearly muster 2000 hardy types a round today. Can't work it out.

John- that one beats me as well- I still watch the BTCC (although didn't even attend a single round last year- only the second time I've done that since 1985!), but the cars seem very mundane compared to what I watched in the 80's (and I HATE the tacky bodykits and oversized rear wings on the current cars- I can understand having a wing that size on the back of a 600bhp GT car, but on a Vauxhall Astra....?), and as for the driving standards......

I've been mainly a fan of touring cars and sportscars for close to 20 years, but find increasingly that sportscars and historics are about the only things that hold my attention.

[Peter Mallett]

When they finally gave in to the "hard boy" tactics it lost my support. But I guess if you only have 2 litres to play with you need a bit of help.

I disagree that the class system was difficult to follow (which is the normal excuse for doing away with it).

[gfm]

I think that's probably the point Peter. They're all stuck at 2 litres. And let's face it, any monkey can drive a 2 litre ... did I say that?

[Peter Mallett]

Looking at the coverage of the last rounds from Silverstone last night the word "monkey" is too good!

[stuart05]

One of my great memories of Group A is watching Andy Rouse on full opposite lock, power-sliding out of the chicane at Thruxton in the Sierra RS500. Tourers just don't do that anymore.
I'm just old enough to be able to have appreciated the halcyon days of Group A when part of the challenge for the guys at the front was threading the "Big Bangers" through the swarming tail-enders as a race progressed.
For me, Group A is my favourite period, although I stand at Goodwood every year and watch the St Marys trophy in complete awe... was it really that good at every event???

[Peter Mallett]

Stuart. May I be the first to welcome you to our friendly forum?

I'd also like to congratulate you on your post.

[Jesper OH]

The 1980’s Group A - too young to have been around for the Group 5 of the 1960’s or the Groups 1 & 2 of the 1970’s, DTM strayed a bit too far off into the stratosphere in 1990’s and made Super Touring look sedate in the process, while the current Super Productions, mmh, just fill a gap of sort.

I think Touring Car racing lost direction, when the old 5000 unit homologation limit of Group A was abandoned for the 25,000 unit body shell-4.2 meter-4-door sedan-aero kit specials. Those cars (and the cars are what you look at for 95 % of the time as Joe Average) just lack identity in my mind.

Group A produced some exciting racing AND road cars – and some very competitive production Saloons in the process too. Look what has happened to Group N in rallying after the introduction of the WRC kit cars! Mitsubishi dominance rivalled by the similar Proton license produced cars, but thankfully with a bit of an effort from Subaru over the last few years.

Further more Group A had become adopted as the premier touring car formula around a lot of the premier national championships in the world by the mid 1980’s.
I have always had a special affinity for the Australian championship at this point in time. Those familiar euro specials, but in NASCAR colour schemes, driven by some colourful larger than life characters – a sort of the best of two worlds in one. Since then the Aussies has taken the NASCAR route a bit more serious, but the cars has ended up being the same bunch of “featureless” racing specials – A Holden Commodore/Ford Falcon with aerokits and some US sourced V8.

Group A became too expensive and complex to control in its time, and probably wouldn’t work today, but I would like to see some of the mass production elements in future Touring car rule sets.

Jesper

[D-Type]

When was it that Tony Lanfranchi won the BTC in a Moskvitch? the same as you could buy and I could afford!

[Amaroo Park]

For me it would have to be the Group A period in Australia 1985 to 1991. Interesting different makes etc until killed by the Nissan GTR

[GROUPA]

Colin Bond wrote
For me it would have to be the Group A period in Australia 1985 to 1991. Interesting different makes etc until killed by the Nissan GTR


Here, here...I loved th Group A era in Australia from the 635csi & Volvo's to the E30 M3 and GTR and GTR Skyline & Sierra....also liked the other cars involved....GTV6 & Alfa 75 Turbo, Mercedes Benz

As for our current taxi racing....I enjoy but not as much as GTP or the old Group A days

[Speedy norm]

D type has jogged my memory by mentionung Tony Lanfranchi.
The Moskvitch referred to contested the 72 - 73 Production sallon championships sponsored one by Britax the other by Castrol and was based on price rather than c.c. (Up to £800 class)
Therefore the Moskvitch being so cheap won its class every time! He also won the over £1500 class in a BMW 3.0Si.These were Production Saloons in all but name but were called Group 1

[Frank de Jong]

Sorry, I was on holiday ;-)
For me, the 1970-1973 period was the most interesting. But ETCC-wise, 1985-1986 was not bad at all, the very early years were interesting too, and I became a frequent BBC viewer from the late 80's until the middle 90's. A bit rough but fascinating.

[stuart05]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Peter Mallett
[B]Stuart. May I be the first to welcome you to our friendly forum?

Many thanks Peter.

Interesting point by Colinbond about Group A in Australia.
I remember reading a comment by Dick Johnson back in 1987/88 about how the Sierra RS500 Cosworth would kill Group A world-wide. I've always thought he got it spot-on. It may be a huge irony, but is it possible that the Skyline kept the catagory going just that little bit longer on Australia compared to Europe?

[johnh875]

While I only experienced touring car racing from 1980 on, I would say that all eras up to the end of Gr A have appeal. Since then the cars have become racing cars with panels rather than touring cars, both BTCC and V8SC, let alone DTM! Also the similarity of specification these series impart means the differences in machinery that used to exist are no longer such an influence.

I would say the early Gr A era was the greatest, due to the diverse cars racing and also significantly because of the homologation special road cars that were necessary – I agree with the change the WRC regs have had here, apart from Mitsubishi and Subaru there aren’t any there any more either.

I don’t know the intricacies of the regulations, but did Gr A have any restrictions associated with 4wd? I’m thinking a capacity adjustment similar to that of turbo or rotary engines, or indeed a turbo boost adjustment may have been able to achieve better parity for the Nissan GT-R “Godzilla”.

[chunterer]

Without doubt for variety and compettion then Grp A (80's)was the one and if they'd have capped turbochargers a bit to stop the power outputs getting ott then it would've lasted a lot longer to and who knowns might even still be the de facto regs for touring cars today.

The BTCC was best when there was variety, noise and drivers! Grp 1 was also good although i only got into the sport in 1979/80 when it was starting to change a bit.

I guess the late 60's early 70's would've been good too, but i reckon it must have been a bit specialist and not enough variety? Damn good cars though in grp2/5

As true enthusiasts, we like tails out and nice engine notes and lots of cars. Therefore a mix of V12, V8, V and straight 6, and 4 cylinders all in one event is far more interesting than a bunch of poxy hatchbacks running around for an overall victory, when in the proper days they'd be lucky if they'd be challenging for baby class honours, according to their engine capacity!

Yes, i know i'm living up to my name again, chuntering on.

We should do this as a poll!

I'd sooner have to go to Silverstone or Thruxton or wherever to witness XJS, Commodores, Rovers, Capris, 635's Supra's GTV6's and the odd turbo Starion and.

It was just sensational.

Like sportscars i always thought touring car racing was supposed to be an 'aspirational' thing for the man in the street? Not many could afford a 635 or Vitesse or XJS and they could see the 'little' cars in the same race, so they would admire the cars properly.

There's nothing aspirational about a Honda Civic?!!

[zefarelly]

thinking about it from a different angle . . . .now has to be the best time . . . you can go out most weekends and see some fantastic cars from every era, and watch the BTCC on TV when you get in

its us lunatics that mortgage our crown jewels to keep these old things going sideways round corners !

[Frank de Jong]

Originally posted by johnh875
I don’t know the intricacies of the regulations, but did Gr A have any restrictions associated with 4wd? I’m thinking a capacity adjustment similar to that of turbo or rotary engines, or indeed a turbo boost adjustment may have been able to achieve better parity for the Nissan GT-R “Godzilla”.

There was no restriction in group A for 4wd, the only restriction for turbos was the capacity factor (1,4, later 1,7 IIRC) which resulted in a higher minimum weight (and wider tires and a bigger fuel tank).
Restrictions for 4wd came more or less with the DTM (weight handicap, but the Audi V8 was different in other ways too with its big engine) and FIA class 1 and 2 (weight penalty).

[BILTEL]

Group A, without doubt

[johnh875]

Originally Posted by Frank de Jong

There was no restriction in group A for 4wd, the only restriction for turbos was the capacity factor (1,4, later 1,7 IIRC) which resulted in a higher minimum weight (and wider tires and a bigger fuel tank).
Restrictions for 4wd came more or less with the DTM (weight handicap, but the Audi V8 was different in other ways too with its big engine) and FIA class 1 and 2 (weight penalty).

Cheers Frank, apologies for such a late reply.

[Marcus Mussa]

I really enjoyed watching some of the TransAm races in Canada back in 1967/68 when I lived there. There were drivers like Parnelli Jones, Mark Donohue, George Follmer, Milt Minter, Peter Revson etc etc. Also Minis and Lotus Cortina (Alan Moffatt). We were really spoiled in those days, what with TransAm and CanAm !

Since then I suppose the best series for me was the Group A series in the mid-80’s, as a lot of you seem to think.

I had the pleasure of taking part in one of those races, it was at Anderstorp in 1986. I “rented” a seat in a privately run Toyota Corolla (with Pierre Fermine, a Belgian owner/driver). I was supposed to be the third driver however I ended up driving alone with Fermine, which was fine by me! It was one of my best racing memories. There must have been 4 or 5 either current or ex-F1 drivers in the race, including one former World Champion (Denny Hulme!). I actually started the race next to Gerhardt Berger! Well the truth is we managed to qualify on the last row, and he was much further up the grid in his BMW. He was however unable to fire the car up and had to start from the last row.

Fermine did not have the right tyres; the race tyres he had brought along were too wide and we were not allowed to use them. We ended up having to do the full 3.5 hour race on one set of Michelin qualifiers! So I took it quite easy to save rubber. When Fermine took over at half distance he went much faster, but also came in after 10 laps complaining about the handling – the tyres were melting! We also had alternator problems and had to borrow the battery from my hire car (also a Toyota by chance).

It was a marvelous race to follow from such a grandstand seat – the leaders (TWR Rovers and semi-works Volvos) were a few seconds apart all race. They would blast past regularly. I left them lots of space – I was particularly wary of Tom Walkinshaw, but he was charming and always waved to thank me for moving over. I remember once I had Denny Hulme looming up behind me, I moved over to let him through before one of the corners, but he moved exactly the same way, so I moved the other way and of course he followed – it was getting a bit embarrassing, I should have just let him find his own way past, but it was rather impressive having that familiar two striped helmet sitting just behind my back window!

At the drivers’ briefing Walkinshaw played a bit of gamesmanship. The race took place just days after two terrible accidents, one was Elio de Angelis accident at Ricard and the other was Toivonen’s accident in Corsica. Walkinshaw circulated a petition calling for a ban on the very volatile fuel that was being used in racing at the time, in ETCC particular by the Volvo team. So he was using the fatalities to gain an advantage as naturally the Rovers did not need such high octane fuel. Anyway we all signed the petition. I remember lending my pen to Marc Surer, and ironically a few weeks later he was terribly badly burned in a rally accident. I think his navigator was killed. The Volvos ended up being disqualified from the results. We managed to finish the race, well back of course, but Fermine was quite pleased as I think it was the first race he had finished that year.