Is the Ferrari only a 'good average' car?

Hugh Jarce · 24 Mar 2004, 12:44 (Ref:917782)

We all sit here week after week saying how dominent Ferrari is and that its a 'one horse race' but in true exam format discuss the following statement:

"The fact that Rubens consistently struggles for podiums would indicate that the Ferrari is no better than the Williams or the Renault.

The only thing causes Ferrari to consistently win is Michael Schumacher. And, he would have the same effect at Williams or Renault causing them to have similar dominance."

Mr V · 24 Mar 2004, 12:52 (Ref:917798)

Rubens shadowed Michael in Australia, and suffered because he picked the wrong tyres in Malaysia.

The Ferrari is still the best car out there at the moment, with Williams not too far behind.

If the Ferrari is a good average car, the rest are below average.

DavidStHubbins · 24 Mar 2004, 12:54 (Ref:917804)

As much as I have hated him over the years one thing has always been evident: this man is incredible...

He does not always do things nicely but he will do anything to win, whether is bends the rules or not. Hearing about him fiddling with his diff and changing his brake balance from corner to corner and lap to lap is indicative of what the other drivers are up against! He is extracting EVERYTHING from that car race in race out. Couple that with the reliability of the Ferrari and that is one big brick wall for everybody else.

Montoya's fastest lap was 0.5 faster than Michaels! Ok, Rubens held him up a bit but still! He wins when he shouldn't and he damn well wins when he should. 72 and counting...

I have no doubt that the Ferrari is not always the fastest car out there but Schuey makes all the difference.

**Bononi** · 24 Mar 2004, 13:08 (Ref:917838)

I bet the rest of the grid dreams with a good average car like Ferrari !!!!

tally-bally-ho · 24 Mar 2004, 13:16 (Ref:917850)

Maybe Michael isn't being challenged because most of the other drivers in F1 are there not because they're any good, but because they can afford a drive.

Yes, I know Michael needed Merc backing to get in at Jordan, but he was so obviously talented that it took about 1 second for him to be recruited into a more competitive situation and the rest is history.

Who is really going to challenge him?

climb · 24 Mar 2004, 13:17 (Ref:917852)

.. or even just a bit less

climb · 24 Mar 2004, 13:18 (Ref:917854)

..ooops, my post referreed to Bon's one!

spider · 24 Mar 2004, 13:26 (Ref:917870)

No-one is as good a package as Schuey. The man is incredible, RB is very very good, but isn't as complete. The Ferrari is the best car and Michael IS the best driver - overall it's a pretty potent combo - understatement of the year!

**BertMk2** · 24 Mar 2004, 13:27 (Ref:917873)

The fact that Rubens struggles to get on the podium in some races is mostly because not as good as the other drivers chasing after the podium places. He's an ok driver in a good car and sometimes that isn't enough.

I'm not saying Rubens is **** - just that there are better drivers out there in cars that aren't that much worse than the Ferrari and as a car/driver combination they can outperform Rubens Ferrari.

Hugh Jarce · 24 Mar 2004, 13:31 (Ref:917885)

Just my point Bert - the cars may not be that different - its the simply the driver that causes the dominence.

Here's one to focus the issue.

Would Schuey in the current Williams regularly beat Montoya in the current Ferrari.

**Bononi** · 24 Mar 2004, 13:44 (Ref:917914)

Quote:

Originally posted by Hugh Jarce
Would Schuey in the current Williams regularly beat Montoya in the current Ferrari.

You just did it, Hugh. Flame bait !!!!

Red · 24 Mar 2004, 13:51 (Ref:917926)

That's not flame bait...

Michael Schumacher in last years BA.... ermm ok, I stop here

:whistles innocently:

Mr V · 24 Mar 2004, 14:17 (Ref:917965)

Quote:

Originally posted by Hugh Jarce

Would Schuey in the current Williams regularly beat Montoya in the current Ferrari.

Another one of those great unknowns in F1

dcp2685 · 24 Mar 2004, 14:23 (Ref:917971)

Quote:

Originally posted by Hugh Jarce
Just my point Bert - the cars may not be that different - its the simply the driver that causes the dominence.

Here's one to focus the issue.

Would Schuey in the current Williams regularly beat Montoya in the current Ferrari.

I think he would. No doubt. As someone else mentinoed earlier, Barrichello's performance in the Ferrari shows what the average ferrari car can do. Everything else is Schuy factor. Since Montoya can usually beat Barichello so i would attribute Montoyas progress in the Ferrari slightly higher than Barrichello and about where the Williams is w/ JPM currently driving it. However not as high as Schumachers would be in the Williams.

Kicking-back · 24 Mar 2004, 14:34 (Ref:917982)

Fundamentally disagree.

The whole package has to be right.

Look at Hungary last year as an example.

Schumacher's great, but he's not superhuman.

Combine his skills with the best package - and you have a very hard target to beat.

Mr V · 24 Mar 2004, 14:40 (Ref:917988)

Quote:

Originally posted by Kicking-back

The whole package has to be right.

Look at Hungary last year as an example.

Schumacher's great, but he's not superhuman.

Agreed with K-B, add to Hungary... Europe, France, Britain and Germany, where iirc, Michael didn't lead a lap.

Michael is a fantastic driver, but like everyone else, if everything else is not in place, his driving ability can't make up the short comings alone.

Hugh Jarce · 24 Mar 2004, 14:56 (Ref:917998)

Doesn't that just possibly prove the case some more.

If MS has an off day - and the Ferrari isn't that much ahead of the Williams (especially this season) - that could explain why they didn't lead a lap.

My recollection on some of those was that Ferrari did not qualify well and just couldn't claw it back.

BTW - this is not meant to be 'flame bait' - it's a serious comment albeit with a 'tongue in cheek' title.

Maybe Ferrari aren't as far ahead as everyone assumes.

climb · 24 Mar 2004, 15:05 (Ref:918001)

Anyways, Hugh, it takes some courage to argue that Ferrari are just average cars.

Barrichello performed worse than MS due to a wrong tyre strategy, on a track where this kind of mistake was not allowed.
Otherwise we would probably have seen another red walkover.

Mr V · 24 Mar 2004, 15:24 (Ref:918015)

Quote:

Originally posted by Hugh Jarce

If MS has an off day - and the Ferrari isn't that much ahead of the Williams (especially this season) - that could explain why they didn't lead a lap.

My recollection on some of those was that Ferrari did not qualify well and just couldn't claw it back.

Hugh, old buddy, i said that Michael didn't lead a lap

Rubens won Silverstone in very dominant fashion!

krt917 · 24 Mar 2004, 15:49 (Ref:918038)

I think that the Ferrari is, overall, a much-better-than-average car. Part of the reason for that is Schuey's work within the team - that's one of the skills that sets him apart. And remember, the days when the Ferrari looked average last year were usually due to the tyre war. Now, I know that the tyres are part of the package and all that, but if Ferrari had had Michelins last year they would have had an easier run to the title.

Having said that, on the days when the Bridgestones are marginal, or when the Ferrari isn't quite right, then Schuey's class means that he can still win and get the best out of it. This consistantly high level is what Rubens struggles to do. I agree that there are better drivers on the grid than Rubens, but he's not bad and I think that on the days when he can't get it together we see what Michael can bring to Ferrari on the track (as well as off it).

So, the point is, the Ferrari is great, partly due to Schuey, but Schuey can also produce that extra something when required.

And, I think that he probably would have won the title in last year's Williams....

Kicking-back · 24 Mar 2004, 15:53 (Ref:918043)

Exactly.

It's the old thing that always happens.

Schumacher supporters would like us to believe his cars are rubbish and he only wins through sheer brilliance.

Redblurr · 24 Mar 2004, 16:06 (Ref:918056)

in 1994 he was on the pace stuck in 5th gear and set fastest lap chasing Hill - brilliance yes indeed

Kicking-back · 24 Mar 2004, 16:16 (Ref:918069)

No one's denying his brilliance, but much of his SUCCESS is down to the car.

He makes better use of it than most others would - but he's still driving the best machinery on the grid.

Redblurr · 24 Mar 2004, 16:48 (Ref:918106)

If his SUCCESS is down to the car - then it is down to him, he has had plenty of input in the development of the Ferrari

garcon · 24 Mar 2004, 16:57 (Ref:918121)

When a driver like Schumacher has been with the team for such a long time, there's no hard line between driver and car - they begin to merge, simply because the driver has had so much input to the car over the years.

I think it's a fair comparison to look at Rubens' performances, over the past couple of years. It becomes pretty obvious that the Ferrari F1 2002 was head and shoulders above the rest. In 2003, it was much closer, but I reckon was still a better car hampered at many circuits by the Bridgestone tyres. It's too early to say in 2004, but you still have to view it as better than a "good average" car.

But would Schumi have won his last 4 WDCs in a Williams or McLaren? Yeah, I reckon he probably would.

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