ALMS Round 2: The Grand Prix of Long Beach

[broadrun96]

I was actually surprised to not see anyone mention Bruno kept the Jag running fast enough to lead the GT2 field during the pit sequence. Overall though the race did seem somewhat unfull-filling but think that was more due to missing half an ALMS race. It was an entertaining FIA GT race with some crazy looking 5 or 6 other cars on track. Or at least I think there was some prototype action after Dyson seemed to forget they could change the tires and not just the air pressure.

That said it was still a road race and I'll watch about anything on a street course so I might not be a good judge for race quality. The Lime Rock commercial did get me looking forward to the fast and fun little track though and the ESPN aerial cam made me think I need to go out and buy a boat.

[hondafan37]

Am I the only person here who actually enjoyed the race?? There were some great battles going on in GT, Joey Hand's pass on the Vette & Porsche early on was great! Good finishes for Falken & Jaguar! Pity P1 & P2 had only 2 entries in each but LMPC had a couple of good battles going on!

I enjoyed it!! I think like you, there were some great battles going on in GT.
It was a pity that the Risi start in the last position, because could have fight for the victory.

[vancecooley]

Originally Posted by fieldodreams79

I too rather enjoyed it...not the GREATEST I've ever seen, but the first hour was full of all kinds of action, with the exception of the long caution period for the Jag. The last hour tapered off a bit and the finish under yellow was a bit anti-climactic. Still, not sure what others expected from a crowded GT battle on a street course and a lackluster LMP category.



Unfortunately for me, the first hour was hampered by choppy ESPN3 streaming. Cleared up tremendously for the second hour. I think it was MY connection.

Great GT action on the course. Shame about LMP being what it was, but the GT race was great and the coverage of GT was very good.

I'm watching the replay on ALMS.com on my ps3. Decent picture...

[WolfsburgRS]

I watched most of yesterday online at www.americanlemans.com - it was up pretty quickly, which I was really pleasantly surprised about. I thought it was fantastic, a little but of drama, some great performances from the drivers, strong field, and they concentrated on the GT battle which is where the attention should be.

It was actually very old school IMSA GTO feeling with the way the cars were battling. It's gotten to the point that things are so close between so many cars that drivers are having to push so hard they're right on, and crossing over, the edge. For example I can't believe Auberlin's mistake at the fountain! The issue with the Corvette is maybe a little but of a gray area, but when he pulled out RIGHT in front of Joey, that's very atypical for sure...

For me it was great. LMP was whatever, but GT has more than enough action and story lines to make it more interesting than any other race series out there.

[ARTRACER1]

so where does that leave the series for 2012? GT will be great we know, but LMPC's pretty much? Dyson against who? What P team really wants to race against itself. Sure, you have to show up, race and keep it off the grass or the walls to win. But do you really think that Pickett is feeling THAT elated?
He pretty much only needed to beat himself as Dyson once again grabbed defeat out of the jaws of victory. Poor old Guido.

[Purist]

The GT race was excellent, and btw, it was one of the Vettes that tagged the #48 Porsche in the back, NOT the Falken Porsche.

As for LMP, yeah, that was weird Dyson not just changing the tires. The other trouble though, is that you can't afford to speed up the LMPCs much, and under cut the LMP1 and LMP2 classes. Also, with entirely new machinery in LMP2, and questionable reliability making judgment of actual performance nigh impossible, how could the ALMS go about balancing the current LMP1 and LMP2 anyway? Maybe we might have something to go on after Spa, but we'll just have to see.

[WolfsburgRS]

Yeah, 2012 is indeed a conundrum. Not much camera time for your dollars in LMP now. This may be better for the ALMS 'general' thread, but I was thinking about the LMP situation when I was watching the race. Ultimately I think they should do away with LMPC, which sure, might end up with a couple teams leaving the series, but maybe a few would stick around or convert their LMPC into LMP2 and that would at least get a few more cars to the proper sharp end of the grid.

If the series goes all GT, Dyson might be persuaded to buy a Porsche since they ran them previously, although always in prototype / GTP classes rather than GT. I'm sure the Mazda money may effect their decision as well.

[JAG]

As Atherton said if Long Beach was representative of LMP prospects for the year ahead and 2012 they'd pack up now.

[Fogelhund]

Truth be told, the Mazda money isn't enough to make decisions upon.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by WolfsburgRS

Ultimately I think they should do away with LMPC, which sure, might end up with a couple teams leaving the series, but maybe a few would stick around or convert their LMPC into LMP2 and that would at least get a few more cars to the proper sharp end of the grid.

I don't think LMPC is going anywhere. I think the cost-capped LMP2 idea could prove to be a great idea, but I can't blame teams for not wanting to invest in it right now. The rules seem all out of whack. I would be leery of investing in turbo LMP2 engines, but the ACO/IMSA could change the rules around to make the NA Nissans and Judds uncompetitive. Hopefully this can be sorted out and made consistent soon.

I'm not sure if Dyson would go the GT route. I think they would go LMPC or more likely Grand Am than go to GT. Who knows though.

[ubrben]

Originally Posted by AGD

I don't think LMPC is going anywhere. I think the cost-capped LMP2 idea could prove to be a great idea, but I can't blame teams for not wanting to invest in it right now. The rules seem all out of whack. I would be leery of investing in turbo LMP2 engines, but the ACO/IMSA could change the rules around to make the NA Nissans and Judds uncompetitive. Hopefully this can be sorted out and made consistent soon.

I'm not sure if Dyson would go the GT route. I think they would go LMPC or more likely Grand Am than go to GT. Who knows though.

I don't see why they don't allow LMPC cars to be part of LMP2. Oreca have a clear indication of the performance delta between their 03 cost-capped P2 car and the LMPC car - give it a sensible restrictor and allow the teams to run any tyre they want - automatic grid of 7-8 LMP2s then all we need is 5 or so LMP1s and we're good again.

Yes there was a three year deal with LMPC - but there might not be a year 3 at this rate, so someone needs to make a decision.

Ben

[AGD]

It may make more sense to combine LMP1 and LMP2 again and leave LMPC as it is. It does not really make a lot of sense to have a manufacturers class and a privateers class when all the teams are privateers (granted, the AMR-One that will probably run ALMS races later this year is not a privateer effort, but it did not even have privateer pace based on what happened at Ricard).

How would the rules be written if LMP1 and LMP2 were combined? Should cost-capped LMP2 cars still get a weight and restrictor advantage? Should they be required to have pro-am drivers?

The problem with combining classes is that it creates a lot of confusion when the ILMC comes to town. Also, it could create an unfair championship situation. If one team chooses LMP1 equipment and 4-5 others choose LMP2 equipment, the 1 LMP1 car will just have to finish in order to get first place points. Meanwhile, the LMP2 teams would have to fight hard to get first place points. It's not an insignificant issue if the ILMC races make up a significant portion of the ALMS championship as is the case this year.

[KA]

Originally Posted by AGD

It may make more sense to combine LMP1 and LMP2 again and leave LMPC as it is. It does not really make a lot of sense to have a manufacturers class and a privateers class when all the teams are privateers (granted, the AMR-One that will probably run ALMS races later this year is not a privateer effort, but it did not even have privateer pace based on what happened at Ricard).

How would the rules be written if LMP1 and LMP2 were combined? Should cost-capped LMP2 cars still get a weight and restrictor advantage? Should they be required to have pro-am drivers?

The problem with combining classes is that it creates a lot of confusion when the ILMC comes to town. Also, it could create an unfair championship situation. If one team chooses LMP1 equipment and 4-5 others choose LMP2 equipment, the 1 LMP1 car will just have to finish in order to get first place points. Meanwhile, the LMP2 teams would have to fight hard to get first place points. It's not an insignificant issue if the ILMC races make up a significant portion of the ALMS championship as is the case this year.

ALMS kept the LMP1/2 classes separate for Sebring & PLM last year when they combined the prototype classes for the rest of the season, so that would be easy to do again on paper- except would the differing performance of the 'new' LMP1 & LMP2 cars make it more difficult to achieve now than it was last year?
Would rolling the LMPC cars into LMP2 be an easier fit? the performance situation seems closer, and if neccessary the FLM09s could still be split off as a separate class for the ILMC races...

[WolfsburgRS]

John Dagys asked Scott Atherton directly about low car counts at Long Beach and "what if" on combined LMP1 / LMP2 in his Speedtv.com interview, and Atherton said there was too much performance disparity based on the 2011 rules to make that work as had happened previously. From what we have seen in the first few races this year that seems to be pretty much the case for surel. LMPC and LMP2 are very close in performance now, LMP1 would take some serious reigning in...and then what's the point of running LMP1. Costs more, less performance,

[AGD]

Originally Posted by KA

ALMS kept the LMP1/2 classes separate for Sebring & PLM last year when they combined the prototype classes for the rest of the season, so that would be easy to do again on paper-

Yeah, but separating the classes out causes the championship problems I mentioned earlier. The top car in each class will get 1st place points, but that might not really be fair as one class may have a lot more competition than the other.

Originally Posted by WolfsburgRS

John Dagys asked Scott Atherton directly about low car counts at Long Beach and "what if" on combined LMP1 / LMP2 in his Speedtv.com interview, and Atherton said there was too much performance disparity based on the 2011 rules to make that work as had happened previously. From what we have seen in the first few races this year that seems to be pretty much the case for surel. LMPC and LMP2 are very close in performance now, LMP1 would take some serious reigning in...and then what's the point of running LMP1. Costs more, less performance,

The LMP2 Nissans weren't that far off the pace of LMP1s at the LMS Ricard race. Obviously the LMP1 field at Ricard wasn't super strong either (no diesels or HPD LMP1s), but I think the ALMS could pull it off considering the LMP1s in the ALMS aren't the best models either. The problem is that there are huge disparities between the LMP2 engines, although I guess we will have to see how the ARX-01d teams deal with the new restrictor size at the Test Day and at Spa.

[gttouring]

I was there at the chicane before the hairpin really tiny field.. nice action. Those M3s are sorted out..the jaguars are still embarrasing

[broadrun96]

Did the Jags still sound and smell pretty good though? Was a huge car at PLM but could tell it was coming even compared to the Vettes. And at least seems like they can last now, well if you don't drift it into the wall.

[HJJ]

Originally Posted by ubrben

Yes there was a three year deal with LMPC - but there might not be a year 3 at this rate, so someone needs to make a decision.
Ben

Seems the decision been made.

http://www.lemans.org/en/races/leman...2014_3378.html

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by HJJ

Seems the decision been made.

http://www.lemans.org/en/races/leman...2014_3378.html

[JAG]

As the PR says, the class is a training ground, current entrants are expected to step-up and a new intake comes in.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by JAG

As the PR says, the class is a training ground, current entrants are expected to step-up and a new intake comes in.

because there never was a training ground for drivers and teams in the past right?

[vancecooley]

I would prefer to have ONE solid LMP class based on LMP1 rules, then the LMPC class. I don't think you essentially need two classes that are being used as privateer stepping stones to LMP1. I know it's too late to address the differences in formula now, but 3 LMP classes is unnecessary and f'n confusing to new comers. 4 classes is plenty, 5 is too much and SIX? come on...

[cmk]

3 LMP classes are doubly unnecessary when you've created a cost-capped P2 class that you are having trouble finding a target pace slot for that keeps behind P1 and ahead of FLM/PC while still keeping the latter ahead of GTE. A cost-capped P2 is supposed to be a good entry point, isn't that the point of a cost cap and rules against all-pro lineups? Why not let the FLM tubs run in P2...oh wait, they are running as LC75s or Oreca 03s already! Inanity abounds.

[Deleted]

We may not agree with the ACO but you must've been blind not to see this coming. Cheap way of filling the grid.

[JAG]

At Spa there'll be 35 LMP's on the grid with just five being FLM/LMPC's.

The story of 2010's group is not the racing they provided it's HPV entering a P1 ORECA Hybrid, P2 Oreca Nissan for Boutson and Level 5 with their Lola HPD's.

This year teams can gain experience at the test day and series champions will recieve a P2 Le Mans entry, the class needs to be used to develop teams and drivers not only fill grids.