[Driver] Webber VS Vettel

[Knowlesy]

Originally Posted by mac

Wow. There's ten minutes of my life I'll never get back.

Can I vote this the lamest thread ever? Not the subject as it's a worthy topic of conversation - but the content...

Why is it that when a poster states that Webber will have difficulty with his limited preparations and the lost ballast due to KERS, the poster is derided for preparing excuses - yet when his list of team mate casualties is trotted out, said derider proceeds to claim that they were too old, too inexperienced, not fast enough, not good enough, not tough enough, injured, blah blah blah...?

Seems a touch hypocritical to me.

Well it is motorsport, and the biggest acid test is your pace against your teammates. Webber scores well in this area, but neither has he been teamed with someone half decent most of the time. Nobody can suggest Yoong, Klien and Pizzonia were all that good and it cannot be denied that DC was not at his strongest in his later years albeit still a decent hand.

FACT 2: For the large majority of his career, Webber has been plugging away in significantly uncompetitive machinery.

Yes. But why so?

FACT 3: Mark struggled to adapt to the single tyre rule in the first half of 2005 (the only disappointing period of his career), but by the end of the year he was on top of it.

To be fair, all the drivers without exception had to adapt to that.

FACT 4: Sebastian Vettel is a superstar - forget about future tense, he already is.

Certainly is.

FACT 5: For the last third of 2008, the Red Bull was a far worse car than the Toro Rosso - Vettel has said this, after driving both.

I don't understand how this can be so, barring the engine. But if Vettel says so, we must take his word for it.

Given the enthusiasm with which many seem to take great pleasure in finding reasons to denigrate Webber, this is going to be a closely watched battle in here. One thing is for sure - any half chance you lot (and you know who you are) get, you will be all over him. With reason or, as is usually the case, without reason.

People wouldn't bother to 'denigrate' Webber if his frankly ludicrous fans didn't big him up to the point where the casual observer could be forgiven for thinking he was the best motorsport has to offer. I think people are confused by this and will always debate the issue. Let's face it: if Mark retired right now, he'd be best remembered for flipping a Mercedes in France a couple of times. A feat that Peter Dumbreck then put into the shade! He's just a solid, middle of the road racer and nothing more, nothing less.

However, I think a lot of people may be surprised by just how close this fight may be.

If Mark hadn't got injured I think he would have had the upper hand slightly for the first few races. However...

Personally, I think qualifying will be very tight - Webber's greatest challenge will be footing it with Vettel for full race distances.

Qualifying is something we know Webber is competent at, so this will be an interesting aspect of the battle. I too expect this to be the close part.

Vettel may edge it - Webber may edge it, but I've got a feeling that the pair could actually forge quite a strong and formidable team.

Absolutely. A possible Michael/Rubens-esque partnership?

[lookleft]

Originally Posted by SALEEN S7R

Because it is bred into Australians, they beleive they are the best at every sport they participate in which as we all know isnt the case. Yes Australia is usually pretty competitive, even dominant in a couple of sports but it isnt the ultimate force in the sporting world that it likes to people to think. IMO of course. Now back to the topic.

So you think whacking a on the end and directing everyone back to topic exonerates your barb? A truly arrogant, hypocritical load of resentment.

If anything, I would say it is the call of "fair go" that rules Australian sporting culture.

Suggest sticking to motorsports and staying clear of insulting people.

[FPV GTHO]

Originally Posted by Matt

I have to ask, no offense intended, but why does nearly every Australian think Webber is God's gift to racing, and that he is the best there ever was? You didn't see all the US members all gung ho when Scott Speed arrived, nor nearly any other driver(aside from possibly Hamilton and the Brits).

You perhaps see alot of Australians supporting and defending Webber from your side, but over here the majority of people havent got a clue about F1 or perhaps are like the majority of casual fans and only support a driver when theyre winning.

[Pro Racer]

Originally Posted by SALEEN S7R
Because it is bred into Australians, they beleive they are the best at every sport they participate in which as we all know isnt the case. Yes Australia is usually pretty competitive, even dominant in a couple of sports but it isnt the ultimate force in the sporting world that it likes to people to think. IMO of course. Now back to the topic.

BS, it's just we are fiercly competitive people and we get behind the Aussie's and cheer them all the way. we don't think Webber is gods gift (unless you are the media) i know he is a good driver but he isn't Hamilto, Schumacher or Raikkonen esque but being Aussies we still get behind him and cheer him all the way.

[johnh875]

Wasn't going to respond to this thread but changed my mind - waste of time speculating IMO.

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

People wouldn't bother to 'denigrate' Webber if his frankly ludicrous fans didn't big him up to the point where the casual observer could be forgiven for thinking he was the best motorsport has to offer.

Please show me where someone has said "Webber is better than Schumacher, Jim Clark and Fangio"... For crying out loud do we have to bring this out again just because someone thinks Webber might beat Vettel? The most mention Webber gets in the media these days is the uninformed having a bash every time he doesn't win a race, the type who thinks a 4th or 5th place in a RBR is a poor result - & who were probably the same ones pumping him up in the first place!

Saleen S7R - not going to waste time responding to that troll

FWIW I agree with what most people have said - I expect Vettel will end the year on more points than Webber, but I would not be disappointed if the reverse was the case

[ralf fan]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

Absolutely. A possible Michael/Rubens-esque partnership?

You seem to have left out who you think will be the 'Michael' and who will be the 'Rubens' in the partnership.

[OZ_HCR32]

For me this is going to be the most interesting pairing for 2009. I hope that RBR will be competitive but just quietly i am already writing off their season as they have done no testing using 2009 Aero (well at least way less then other teams) and who knows where they will be with KERS and Renault engines.

So unless RBR are one of the Top 4 teams of 2009 then points over the whole season will not be a fair comparison. One exceptional race where you bag a podium may be half your points for the season....so i think you have to look at the individual races over the season.

I think Vettel will have the advantage over Webber, but i am expecting it to be damn close. Simply because i see RBR as a team that fields two equal cars and supports each driver equally so favourtism wont disadvantage one driver like at some other teams.

The reason i see Vettel pipping Webber is because Webber wont enjoy the qualifying advantage over his team mate that he has typically enjoyed. Vettel is a good qualifier and more aggressive in traffic. Webber used to be a keen overtaker but he lost his aggressiveness by mid 2005 when he was fighting for top 5 results/podiums and had some tough breaks with accidents. He was trying too hard, perhaps he has swung too far the other way and is now a tad too conservative.

So these days he is perhaps a tad too much of a big picture thinker looking at 2 points are better then being taken out going for 3 points. He is thinking like a driver of a mid field team. Vettel will be more aggressive in races and be looking to bag max points every race, even if it means losing a spoiler here and there.

If Webber can get the agro back from 2005 then i think he can match Vettel.

The great attribute of Webber, and the only reason why i wont write him off and still rate his chances as 50:50 is his attitude. If Vettel is genuinely quicker then him Webber wont reach for the excuse book or accept that fact easily. He has a great work ethic, part of the reason he is liked by mechanics and his teams. If he has to bridge a performance gap to Vettel then he will do everything humanly possible to do so.

If it is a matter of Vettel having simply too much talent? I cant see that being the case and if required i can see Webber lifting his game another level. I think Webber will welcome the opportunity of a young hot shot team mate and it will be a great motivator for the guy.

Consider... what if he does beat Vettel? I already know it will mean that Webber is an ok driver and Vettel was overrated. Sadly for Webber if he beats Vettel he is too old to get any milage out of Vettels scalp.

He may not be in the top 3 on the grid, but i feel he is a guy that would do more with a McLaren then Heikki, more with a BMW then Heidfeld and more with a Renault then Piquet.

After 2005 vs Heidfeld i started to become a fan of Webber. He often gets his best performances at Monaco, was it 4th this year, 3rd with Williams in 2005 (could of been 2nd) and was looking damn strong in 2006 until car went BANG. In the wet he often creeps up the grid. He bagged podium at the European GP in the wet, was cheated out of a 2nd, some may argue a win in Japan in 2007 in the wet. There are enough blips on the radar to say they guy as earnt the wraps some give him, and deserves a tad more respect from his detractors.

Hope RBR have a good year and both Vettel and Webber are in the meaty end of the grid and actually racing not circulating

..and yes i am drunk and bored trying to sober up as i have to go to work...hence the war and peace

[JeremySmith]

Drink more often.. good post..

[BootsOntheSide]

Even before the broken leg, this was Webber's toughest challenge yet, because Vettel has already showed so much promise. Unless Vettel really struggles with the 2009 rule changes, I can't imagine Webber consistantly getting close to him. He should get the odd good result and maybe outqualify him half a dozen times, but I think this is where Mark's ability level will be proven - good, lifted by a great attitude, but not a great.

[1200Datto27]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

Drink more often.. good post..

Sorry, I know OZ personally, I don't think that he needs the tempting...

[OZ_HCR32]

So bringing a thread back from the dead rather then start a new one.

So far the RBr has exceeded my expectations in testing. Yes i know its only testing but they have been thereabouts. Then i read that they have just tested a second car in private testing. I then read that old Berger is going out on a limb and saying RBR will be No.3 this year.

So it seems encouraging for the time being. Only 4 weeks to go until for me the most interesting part of 2009 kicks off. Webz vz Seb

[FPV GTHO]

I think everyone's impressing so far, not just Red Bull, if you believe the claims the field is currently split by only about half a second.

[rocketracer]

i'm tipping this will be a very fruitful pairing for RBR. Both drivers are supremely talented and have a really strong, hard working demeanour.

webber is very accustomed to driving in a midfield team. So, he is now very adept at being the "punching above his weight / struggling underdog with annoying fans" type of driver (choose the description fitting to your opinion!). Vettel however has not had so many seasons with a struggling outfit, so has a certain freshness to his approach which will bode well if the car is a real frontline challenger.

Unless webber can have a highly successful start to the season with a strong of podiums or highly unlikely win (we'll soon see what RBR have turned out) then i dont think he will be able to cast aside the mental shackles of assuming the struggling underdog status. He seems to get very skitty and nervous when at the front of a race, as he has had too many lost chances in the past due to an array of unfortunate reasons, and seems to resultantly tense up.

I personally really admire both Vettel and Webber. I really dont think either driver will be disgraced this year. However, for the reasons outlined above, if the car is truly front-line, then i think Vettel will show himself to be exceptional, and be clearly ahead on points at season's end. However, if the car is more midfield (like last year's RBR), then i think the fight will be much more even.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

People wouldn't bother to 'denigrate' Webber if his frankly ludicrous fans didn't big him up to the point where the casual observer could be forgiven for thinking he was the best motorsport has to offer.

The Aussies fan are surprised Webber is quite on the pace in F1, since he wasn't topping the championship tables in British F3 for example. It seemed he wouldn't get to F1, and only did since Yoong put in enough coin for Minardi not to need a pay driver in their other chassis... previously he said he wouldn't drive for tail end F1 teams which obviously wasn't terrible sensible... there wouldn't have been an F1 drive elsewhere.

Hence when he got to the Jaguar and seemed reasonably on the pace... the Aussies fans were most intrigued/chuffed. The quallifying laps turned in the Jaguar seemed to be sharp, and Webber seemed to be quite an accurate late breaker.

Obviously they started to think the he was just as good as Alonso, the other driver in a works team after a year in a Minardi... their early performances weren't that different, Webber was quite quick in the Hungary race that Alonso won as I recall. Obviously the bigger-budget Renault was rapidly a much better car than the Jaguar. Despite Alonso's championship, they have no reason not to suggest that is still the case. Alonso was off the road in the early (uncompetitive) 08 Renault, just as Webber was off the road in the uncompetitive 05 Williams.

[FPV GTHO]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

It seemed he wouldn't get to F1, and only did since Yoong put in enough coin for Minardi not to need a pay driver in their other chassis

I cant remember a time when Minardi didnt need money from both of their drivers

[nic.v814]

I cant wait to see the battle between these to this year and i would really like to see webber get a win or 5

[Lotusonpole]

IMHO Vettel (in spite of looking like a possible J. Clarkson offspring) is one of the most promising drivers since Lewis Hamilton arrived on the scene. Potentially there's at least one world championship in him.

Webber came to F1 comparatively late. I think he is capable of winning a race here and there given the right circumstances but will never chase a championship let alone win one. A good solid driver and a good bloke is about right.

Vettel is at the start of his F1 career and Webber is not. For the coming season I think Vettel will be ahead by the end.

Why do I expect some weird suggestions as to what the circumstances in which Webber may win a race?

Cheers
Peter

[duke_toaster]

I think the balance of probabilities is that Vettel will give Webber an absolute pasting, the outsider being that Vettel wipes the floor with his team-mate.

[Glen]

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

I think the balance of probabilities is that Vettel will give Webber an absolute pasting, the outsider being that Vettel wipes the floor with his team-mate.

That's the kind of post that gets bookmarked for later! Drivers that have been quicker than their team-mate year after year are few and far between, and Webber is one of them.

Come on Melbourne! Hurry UP.

[Satorian]

Originally Posted by Lotusonpole

IMHO Vettel (in spite of looking like a possible J. Clarkson offspring) is one of the most promising drivers since Lewis Hamilton arrived on the scene.

Since Lewis Hamilton arrived on the scene?

I was already convinced by Vettel in his 2006 Friday testing. Hamilton came in 2007.




Actually some of my friends were already pretty annoyed by my constant yapping in 2006 when I was already hyping Vettel.

[Knowlesy]

Heard it here first, etc...

[jedrinck]

Is that Montoya? He looks like he picks up an extra value meal from the drive thru during each pit stop.

[Satorian]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

Heard it here first, etc...

To quote myself from January, 16th 2007:

"As much hope as I have for the new car, being a closely integrated all-BMW solution, I'm really looking forward to see Kubica put it through its paces and hope that Vettel will get the opportunity to race this season. I think he has lots of potential that has not been tapped yet and as soon as Heidfeld misses his first race, I expect Vettel to stun everyone."

So, in January 2007 I was proposing a Kubica-Vettel pairing. From today's perspective, one could do worse in drivers. Vettel did not exactly stun on his debut then (although he raised hopes), but "he has lots of potential that has not been tapped yet" and "I expect Vettel to stun everyone" seem to have some validity.



Also, since his early A1GP races I've been very fond of Hülkenberg (as expressed here in the beginning of 2007 the earliest) and calling for his F1 entry. Just you watch his GP2 season (taking GP2 Asia as a hint) and coming F1 debut soon! *shakesfist*

[Knowlesy]

I saw him in A1 GP and F3 and was pretty impressed tbf.

[gomick]

I think Vettel will actually take the next step & mix it with the mclarens, ferrari's, bmw's & renaults - webber wont... i hope i am wrong about mark tho!