Jason Plato, wrong or right

[wheelsportaddict]

Originally Posted by steve_r

Plato would have whinged until the cows came home if he was the one taken out. Newsham did nothing wrong whatsoever, and was taken out by an "overambitious " Plato..

I think "over ambitious" is the right phrase. Plato was neither wrong or right IMHO. He's a racer and like any good racer, if he see's an opportunity to gain a place, he's going to go for it.

Let's face it, every racer has a whinge when things don't go their way. I think in light of some of the incidents over the weekend at Brands Hatch, then this was a pretty minor one.

(Well there's a fence-sitter is ever there was one for e first post)

[IAN #51]

Didint the late great Ayrton Senna once say to Jackie Stewart in an interview were Jackie pointed out he had been involved in a lot of incidents.

• By being a racing driver you are under risk all the time. By being a racing driver means you are racing with other people. And if you no longer go for a gap that exists, you are no longer a racing driver because we are competing, we are competing to win. And the main motivation to all of us is to compete for victory, it's not to come 3rd, 4th, 5th or 6th. I race to win as long as I feel it's possible. Sometimes you get it wrong? Sure, it's impossible to get it right all the time. But I race designed to win, as long as I feel I'm doing it right.

[IAN #51]

That is of course Tongue in cheek before i get berated ! I wouldnt be happy to be punted of in this manner but ! "when in Rome you do as the Romans do"

[MarkG]

Plato may drive a saloon car fast, but I don't like him, or his lack of class on track. He shouldn't have been allowed to keep his place in the first race after his stupid move at Paddock.
The BTCC allow too much rock-ape driving and I suspect some drivers get drawn into banger racing because they're fed up with being intimidated.
I will say though, that Plato drove very well in race 3. Only a minor rock-ape moment. The car was obviously very good on speed, braking, and turn-in but I didn't continue watching after he won (I was disappointed), so didn't hear if he said how good the car was. I'm sure he'd have expanded on the car if it wasn't quick, like so many times last year.

[Hamness]

Originally Posted by Minicross424

I see Jason has not showed up on here yet, we know he visits as he posted on here last year went he was moaning about the turbos.
I think the the whole meeting was a bit shocking re contact but I guess all the time Alan Gow turns a blind it will carry on.
It should of been a DSQ no question.
Its not right that some one who took out the leader in race one and nurfed the leader of race three out of the way should be leading the series.
Come on JP where are you now??

Has obviously had time to study the replay with Dave Newsham and seen what an ass he was. No point moaning on here when he was evidently the guilty party.

BTW I thought Dave Newshams demeanour after the event was a bloody good example for Jason. Imagine if the roles had been reversed...................

Well, we probably would have heard from him on here by now if that was the case.

Come on Jason, do a Jenson and put your bloody hand up for a mistake that was probably not intended, but was a mistake nonetheless.

[dyewat808]

Originally Posted by Thaw Daggerslash

Uh, they're not racing in single seaters. They have bumpers...

No, I joke. I know what you're saying - I like to see a clean, perfectly executed overtake as much as the next guy, but in saloon car racing what do you expect? They're not fragile little single seaters, and because they can get away with it it's expected. It's part and parcel of BTCC racing.

I'd hate to see a championship where every nudge or nerf was penalised. I think Plato was definitely in the wrong when he punted Newsham off in race one, but as for nudging into the back of other cars - I'm totally okay with that. It has always happened. Heck, that clip someone else posted of that Muller overtake was set up because one car nudged into the back of another at the previous corner.

To clarify: I don't want to see dirty or dangerous driving, but using the bumpers has always been part of touring car racing, no matter what anyone says. I don't see why everyone's so shocked when something like that happens. It seems now, on this forum without fail after every BTCC round, there's people calling for X driver to be banned, or stewards to penalise more drivers.

Touring car racing has always had a reputation of featuring some...robust racing. Sure, it is not the purest form of motorsport ever, it is not the cleanest, but it is exciting and affordable for the fans to see. Maybe you think the championship is developing into a bit of an expensive demolition derby - and whilst I can see why you maybe feel like that, I disagree.

No doubt as is always the way if touring car drivers didn't use their bumpers people would start complaining how there was hardly any overtaking. Look at DTM - never nearly as much body contact, but often their races are as dull as anything.

Agree with parts of this, the only problem I have is when drivers use their bumpers into the rear of RWD cars as they have less control in that respect. To be fair its usually the less experienced drivers that end up doing this, but the fact that you know its more likely to end up with a spin with RWD cars and the fact that some drivers don't seem to realise this does slightly irritate me. I was expecting it with Collard at one point but he managed to save it very nicely (can't remember what race it was).

[wheelsportaddict]

Originally Posted by dyewat808

Agree with parts of this, the only problem I have is when drivers use their bumpers into the rear of RWD cars as they have less control in that respect. To be fair its usually the less experienced drivers that end up doing this, but the fact that you know its more likely to end up with a spin with RWD cars and the fact that some drivers don't seem to realise this does slightly irritate me. I was expecting it with Collard at one point but he managed to save it very nicely (can't remember what race it was).

Although no one seems to have mentioned about Collard almost shunting Newsham off at Druids in Race 1!!!!

[dyewat808]

Originally Posted by wheelsportaddict

Although no one seems to have mentioned about Collard almost shunting Newsham off at Druids in Race 1!!!!

Very true, they all play a role in it - what goes around comes around

[expaddockrunner]

Well, it's only been 24 hrs just, since I posted this.

But from the poll, so far Jason WAS wrong in taking the place, I think it was just how and where he choose to do it.

There will always be overtaking lie this in the BTCC, let's just hope it never results in a bad accident (injury wise)

I guess, there will be more story's like this from each round.
Thank you for all the feedback so far.

[kristof14]

As much as I hate to paraphrase Casey "Moaner" Stoner

"His ambition outweighed his talent"

Part of me thinks that Plato gives the answers he does purely so he gets airtime for his sponsors, the other part of me thinks he's so arrogant he actually believes the things he says.

[Alfa Fan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPCGnkApnDU

People who question how Plato would have reacted had events been reversed should probably watch this..

[jimothy84]

Sorry, I didn't see Jonny Adam taking to the pitlane to make that manouver... same corner, very different incident. Different point of contact, different position of track, very different outcome.

[Burp]

I think a better example would be knockhill last year when Boardman had him off. He even called him a talentless pikey on twitter. Not very professional, he did appoligise after but Newsham handled it much better

[Sodemo]

Drivers need to make split second decisions when racing. I have been involved in the occassional bump when I perhaps should have backed out of it, but you don't have 5 minutes to think about it. I am just playing devils advocate here. And no, I am not a big fan of the bloke at all, (I am a BMW supporter - RWD all the way). I do think what Plato did was wrong and yes he does have a bad reputation for doing this stuff, but I can kind of see his side of it. No doubt though, he was in the wrong and deserved to be punished, I am not arguing that.

[Peat]

Originally Posted by MarkG

The BTCC allow too much rock-ape driving and I suspect some drivers get drawn into banger racing because they're fed up with being intimidated.

Just take 1 look at thier TV ads. 90% of it is crashes. It's the product they sell and people seem to lap it up. Pikeys.

[VIVA GT]

I accept that maybe the BTCC has always had 'contact' between the cars on occasions, but what started as the occasional 'rubbing of doorhandles' has now escalated to more extreme stock car type 'spin him out of the way into the corner with a bash on the rear'.
I just don't think this is a good example for the 'lower classes', and think that someone is going to get seriously hurt if this is allowed to continue (and continue escalating).
To sum up (with comparisons from 'my favourite era' of the BTCC), Plato doesn't have the class or skill of Andy Rouse, he makes Frank Sytner look non-aggressive, and makes Mike Smith look talented!

[Craner Curves]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

I just don't think this is a good example for the 'lower classes', and think that someone is going to get seriously hurt if this is allowed to continue (and continue escalating).

And the cost of competing rises as well, giving you half empty grids.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by Thaw Daggerslash

It's only inevitable nudging and nerfing will take place in racing, particularly touring cars, and if you penalised people for every contact...well, the stewards would have a very long evening.

Contact will occur in any form of racing through errors of judgement, lack of talent or just plain bad luck. However, your use of the terms "nudging & nerfing" implies an element of intent. All contact is, or should be, reported; it's the job of the Clerk of the Course to determine, from the Post Chief's report, which is purely a statement of fact, whether or not the contact was avoidable & to apply any penalties which he (or she) may deem appropriate. The Stewards will only be involved if a driver protests a Clerk's decision.

Motor racing is a non-contact sport. Yes, as I said, contact will occur in close racing; we need to get away from the BTCC mentality which appears to condone deliberate contact in the interests of "entertainment". Good clean, close racing is possible & can be seen week in, week out at club meetings. Sadly, some club racers see their BTCC "heros" banging into one another to gain advantage & think that it's an acceptable part of racing. It isn't.

Deliberate contact, the apparent condoning of contact & the hypocritical attitude of drivers are some of the reasons why I no longer marshal at BTCC meetings

[nicanary]

Exactly- and I believe the moves by JP were deliberate, and should not be condoned on the grounds of entertainment.

As for the rising costs - just how much in percentage terms are the "vehicles" in BTCC related to the actual road cars on which they are based. ? It seems to have become a silhouette formula, and it could so easily be made cheaper to take part in. Or am I being naive?

[Flat Out Farr]

Originally Posted by westfieldbend

If Plato had pulled off that maneuver in banger racing, he may well have been given a 3 month ban.

Just to confirm, BTCC is a 'light contact only' formula isn't it?

If Plato had done that in banger/oval racing he would have got a pick axe handle in the stomach etc !!
Plato and Neal and one or two others have got away with these examples of bad driving for too long. The MSA needs to get a grip of this now, before the next round.
Drive through penalties are an excellent solution or deduction of points

I remember when a few BTCC teams used to bring lawyers to race meetings !!

[bella]

Originally Posted by Peat

Just take 1 look at thier TV ads. 90% of it is crashes. It's the product they sell and people seem to lap it up. Pikeys.

is this not the problem with "courting the masses", as it were? that you have to lure them in with something dramatic because unless you have a basic understanding of motorsport, a tidy overtake around the outside simply doesn't capture the imagination of say, a football fan looking for a day out with the kids? we all drive cars, and we can all overtake (albeit on the motorway, and it's a lorry not matt neal). so where's the lure to see something we can't do ourselves? we go to football games to see football played at a higher level than we're able to play ourselves.

but if you don't try and bring new support to the circuits, where are the attendances going to come from? so you have to show them things that look dramatic. after all, it's what they do with tv drama trailers, isn't it?

purely out of interest (and obviously going off topic), how else would you lure new spectators into the sport with tv advertising?

[Thaw Daggerslash]

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

Contact will occur in any form of racing through errors of judgement, lack of talent or just plain bad luck. However, your use of the terms "nudging & nerfing" implies an element of intent. All contact is, or should be, reported; it's the job of the Clerk of the Course to determine, from the Post Chief's report, which is purely a statement of fact, whether or not the contact was avoidable & to apply any penalties which he (or she) may deem appropriate. The Stewards will only be involved if a driver protests a Clerk's decision.

Motor racing is a non-contact sport. Yes, as I said, contact will occur in close racing; we need to get away from the BTCC mentality which appears to condone deliberate contact in the interests of "entertainment". Good clean, close racing is possible & can be seen week in, week out at club meetings. Sadly, some club racers see their BTCC "heros" banging into one another to gain advantage & think that it's an acceptable part of racing. It isn't.

Deliberate contact, the apparent condoning of contact & the hypocritical attitude of drivers are some of the reasons why I no longer marshal at BTCC meetings

Equally, I find it quite ridiculous that any, or all contact now seems to go punished in motorsport. Look at F1 - how many penalties have been given out for racing incidents? I accept of course that motorsport is supposed to be a non-contact sport - but being heavy handed with penalties is not the way forward. Again - it could be prevented if none of them took part at all - so what are you effectively saying by being heavy handed with penalties? As you rightly point out, contact is inevitable in racing - sometimes nobody is at fault. I maintain that the only time a penalty should be given out is if another driver/marshal/whoever has been put in real danger. That is not the case for a bit of nudging into the back of another car's bumper. Half the time it doesn't even scratch the paintwork.

I like BTCC much more than F1 because it has been open with the fans. After being at a track and watching the races, generally you can go home knowing what the result is. You don't have to wait 30 minutes for a bleedin' steward's inquiry whilst they work out who did what to who and who is the winner. I do think that if you started handing out penalties all over the place in BTCC, it would lose some of its appeal to fans.

I don't agree with the NASCAR philosophy of "boys have at it" where one driver can deliberately take out another one if they feel like it. That's stupid. That's dangerous. But aside from Plato's move on Newsham, I really didn't have any problem with what we saw at Brands. No matter what anybody says, this is the way touring car racing has been like for a long time. You can sit there with rose tinted spectacles on and argue it is worse now than it was then blah blah blah, but I really don't buy that. The evidence is there for you to see on YouTube. Even in the "golden" period of the sport, this type of thing happened, or in fact it might have been worse.

I don't think that the way single seater racing runs should influence how touring car racing works. They are both incredibly different types of racing. Sure, you can't get away with contact in single seater racing, but you can in touring cars, and it does happen. As I said earlier - touring cars has always had more robust racing. But if you want to penalise people for contact in touring cars, you might as well call it a day now and not even bother with the next 9 rounds of the championship...

[barnettracing]

So you thought Plato's move on Jordan in Race 3 was fair? You think it is quite right of him to put over half his car on the grass and push (front bumper to rear bumper) the Civic off the apex of the corner when there wasn't a gap there? I'm sorry, but if you want to see cars pushed out the way then we are no longer racing. It's the same as a professional foul in rugby or football where a player's progress is deliberately impeded.

[trebor901]

Originally Posted by barnettracing

So you thought Plato's move on Jordan in Race 3 was fair? You think it is quite right of him to put over half his car on the grass and push (front bumper to rear bumper) the Civic off the apex of the corner when there wasn't a gap there? I'm sorry, but if you want to see cars pushed out the way then we are no longer racing. It's the same as a professional foul in rugby or football where a player's progress is deliberately impeded.

After watchin back the races from this weekend i think BTCC sucks. You watch WTCC you have much better racing when there is no contact, clean passing etc.

I agree with what has been said earlier in this thread that if something isnt done about it then there is gonna be an accident that claims either the life of one or more drivers or maybe spectators.

[barnettracing]

Originally Posted by bella

is this not the problem with "courting the masses", as it were? that you have to lure them in with something dramatic because unless you have a basic understanding of motorsport, a tidy overtake around the outside simply doesn't capture the imagination of say, a football fan looking for a day out with the kids? we all drive cars, and we can all overtake (albeit on the motorway, and it's a lorry not matt neal). so where's the lure to see something we can't do ourselves? we go to football games to see football played at a higher level than we're able to play ourselves.

I think there is an element of truth in what you're saying however, here is my two pence.

To some people, the same can be said of football. For example, my girlfriend can never understand why people get so excited about some men just kicking a ball around.

Also, the difference between football and motorsport is participation. Everyone (pretty much) can go down their local park with some mates, some jumpers and a football and have a go at trying to score a scissor kick volley from 30 yards. Inevitably the ball is nearly sent into a low orbit whereas when they sit down at 3pm on a Saturday afternoon at Craven Cottage (other grounds available) and watch Clint Dempsey (other players available) he manages to put the ball into the top corner of the net to seal another win for Fulham (I wish!). Therefore, you end up realising how hard it is to perform the moves and skills of your average professional footballer.

With motor racing, not many people take to the track and try and drive as fast as they can (even with the rise of track days). Therefore they don't cultivate the same respect for the skill of racing drivers. Not everyone after all can lap at 100% lap after lap. However, this isn't to say that they can't learn to understand motorsport. Even without the ridiculous contact, watching a car slide around can be bloody exciting. Just think of how exillerated people are having done those 'action day' things you can buy in WHSmiths. There is no overtaking or contact on those, just being driven around a circuit as fast as possible (more often than not on those days it is vastly less than 100%) can really get people excited.

Therefore, it is not a matter of just glamourising accidents and contact, it is about making sure people understand the skill. One way of doing this is making the cars slide around. Compare two photos, one of Jim Clark in a perfect four wheel drift around Stowe, in a Lotus Cortina and another of Michael Schumacher rounding the Parabolica. Schumacher's lap was vastly faster, however the sense of speed in the photo is probably greater in the former thanks to the attitude of the car, rolling onto its outside, inside wheel cocked, four-wheel drifting.

Cars don't have to actually be fast to be exciting. The just have to give the illusion of speed.

This would have a knock on effect on people's appreciating of clean overtaking too, as the public would understand how late you brake and therefore the person overtaking is really pushing the limits to get passed.

It's a tad idealised I grant you, but I certainly think there is some truth in it. Pushing people away from the corner to get through should be reserved for banger racing and the fairground, not an MSA British championship!