Jason Plato, wrong or right

[Greem]

At the 2010 Donington Park BTCC meeting the British Formula Ford championship got a guest slot. Their races were incredible - close, many changes of position, and absolutely zero deliberate contact. People watching at the circuit and on TV commented widely at the time just how good the racing was.

Yes, they're not tin tops, but it goes to show that it *can* be done.

Last year at Knockhill the Scottish Mini races were much the same albeit with a little bit of biff bang pow, but to nowhere near the same levels of the standard TOCA fayre.

Pretty much every weekend there are meetings up and down the country with saloon racing of some sort, and although some are notorious for incidents they aren't notorious for deliberate barging, which is what we see at the BTCC.

It will be interesting to see what happens at Donington, especially given Plato's experience there last year. I don't in the slightest expect things to be any different but there are a couple of much faster sequences than on the Brands Indy circuit, where the consequences of a "love tap" (thanks Mr Harvey) are far, far worse.

I'd better get my flag muscles warmed up.

[BtccLee]

Oh God, another driving standards thread.

Rubbing is racing, no penalties were given out as were racing incidents.

If you want to see cars going round and round in circles with little contact, go to your local supermarket car par.

This place is filled with people who, A: Can't take a joke and B: Are far to serious.

Lighten up, I love the BTCC more than any other series because of the bumping and barging, it is wonderful.

If you don't like it, then watch something else.

BTCC.net is place full of real fans who although sometimes get it wrong, always have a laugh.

Now get over yourselves and lighten up or go away.

[Minicross424]

Originally Posted by BtccLee

Oh God, another driving standards thread.

Rubbing is racing, no penalties were given out as were racing incidents.

If you want to see cars going round and round in circles with little contact, go to your local supermarket car par.

This place is filled with people who, A: Can't take a joke and B: Are far to serious.

Lighten up, I love the BTCC more than any other series because of the bumping and barging, it is wonderful.

If you don't like it, then watch something else.

BTCC.net is place full of real fans who although sometimes get it wrong, always have a laugh.

Now get over yourselves and lighten up or go away.

I think your the one who should go away..
Look at the result of the poll, not exactly popular what plato did is it?
If you like that sort of bish, bash then get down to one of Spedeworths great little tracks for some stock car racing that I love going to watch.
Its all about the right type of racing at the right time.

[Adam43]

Sorry, but this is a legitimate discussion topic. You can have a laugh and also discuss seriously in the same place. It is good when there is disagreement if discussed well. If you don't like it...

[BtccLee]

This is not a discussion, it is rant from lot's of individuals.

Frankly, the only way to get my point over is like this, otherwise you just get shouted down.

This place rarely seems to get at all humours, if you make a mistake you are fired down, it is ridiculous.

It all depends on your perception of real racing, the BTCC provided real racing on Sunday. Neal and Plato have congratulated each other.

And more importantly, all incidents were described as racing incidents.

I would rather see what I saw on Sunday then any other racing in the world, it was superb.

And none of us could drive better than Plato and no, I will not base my answer on the results of the pole.

For once can we discuss the positives, who the marshals handled the incidents, how everyone was OK, as opposed to Plato for the 1555th time.

[Minicross424]

Originally Posted by BtccLee

This is not a discussion, it is rant from lot's of individuals.

Frankly, the only way to get my point over is like this, otherwise you just get shouted down.

This place rarely seems to get at all humours, if you make a mistake you are fired down, it is ridiculous.

It all depends on your perception of real racing, the BTCC provided real racing on Sunday. Neal and Plato have congratulated each other.

And more importantly, all incidents were described as racing incidents.

I would rather see what I saw on Sunday then any other racing in the world, it was superb.

Im not going to keep on as we wont agree on this but that was not racing.
If we had been at Ipswich watching the 1300cc Saloon Stock Cars then fine, no problem, go in hard, nurf the guy in front wide, two wheels on the shale circuit and hell if he wont budge spin him out!
But we were not.
We were watching a non contact sport where people spend huge amounts of money to buy competive cars only to be forced out of the lead by "Diva's"

[BtccLee]

Agree to disagree.

[Clive Brown]

Originally Posted by Alfa Fan

Where you actually aware of what happened in this incident or did you just google "fatal touring car accident"?

For the record, O'Dor lost control of his car on his own, no-one else involved, and was unfortunately collected in the middle of the track by Biela.

It's of no relevance to this discussion whatsoever. The videos are on youtube if anyone really wants to see.

For the record, it couldn't be more relevant. The car got sideways, and then took a substantial hit in the driver's door.

It appears to have become acceptable to turn a fellow competitor sideways. How long will it be before car #2 turns car #1 sideways, and the unsighted car #3 hits car #1 in the driver's door?

I can hardly wait to hear the sanctimonious 'holier than thou' bleating then....

[pauln]

I don't think anybody's being shouted down. There are a lot of people with a strong opinion who are expressing it strongly. On this particular case in this particular forum the weight of that opinion is clearly in one direction and you're in a minority. Nothing wrong with that on either side.

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by BtccLee

This is not a discussion, it is rant from lot's of individuals.

Frankly, the only way to get my point over is like this, otherwise you just get shouted down.

This place rarely seems to get at all humours, if you make a mistake you are fired down, it is ridiculous.

It all depends on your perception of real racing, the BTCC provided real racing on Sunday. Neal and Plato have congratulated each other.

And more importantly, all incidents were described as racing incidents.

I would rather see what I saw on Sunday then any other racing in the world, it was superb.

And none of us could drive better than Plato and no, I will not base my answer on the results of the pole.

For once can we discuss the positives, who the marshals handled the incidents, how everyone was OK, as opposed to Plato for the 1555th time.

nobody ranted until you came along;
but then almost all of the people who have contributed so far are actively involved in the sport either as race drivers, marshals, preppers, engineers etc etc; it's good to have a typical fan along occasionally just to remind us of how shallow is the audience that Mr Gow appeals to.

[Adam43]

No need for that, let's keep to the discussion. Attack the post not the poster.

[barnettracing]

Originally Posted by BtccLee

This is not a discussion, it is rant from lot's of individuals.

Frankly, the only way to get my point over is like this, otherwise you just get shouted down.

No, it just appears that you are in the minority, if that displeases you then tough. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, even if it differs to your own.

Originally Posted by BtccLee

Rubbing is racing...

Rubbing is not god damn racing. It never has been. This isn't NASCAR, and nor should it be. Saloon car/Touring car racing in this country hasn't always had contact like this. Yes, the body shells of two (or more) cars have rubbed, door handle to door handle but drivers like Frank Gardner (Google him) never intentionally pushed another car out of the way. It is cheating, as many of the drivers on this forum have stated (and not all of them are single-seater drivers).

As Greem has pointed out, 'real racing' is plentiful. You are kidding yourself if you think that the BTCC is real racing. Like F1, it is engineered to cater for a TV audience.

The reason all the 'incidents' were listed as 'racing incidents' is because that is what Alan Gow wants. What the majority of people on here are saying is that he is wrong.

[Alfa Fan]

The amount of people on here who feel that just because they piddle around in their couple of grand club racing cars they hold the moral high ground and can look down on others opinions is ridiculous. A normal clubbie racer, like most people on here, is no more informed to pass judgement than the average fan trackside is.

All sport at a professional level is entertainment. The BTCC is no different. "Contact" in the sense being discussed here has been deemed acceptable in the series. It is in no way "cheating" as it has been long since established, for at least the last 20 years, that some degree of contact is acceptable.

If your OK with that then stay around, watch, enjoy, marshal, whatever you do at the BTCC events, if not their is a wealth of other series on offer.

[Clive Brown]

Originally Posted by Alfa Fan

"Contact" in the sense being discussed here has been deemed acceptable in the series. It is in no way "cheating" as it has been long since established, for at least the last 20 years, that some degree of contact is acceptable.

Oh yes? By whom, might one ask?

[Craner Curves]

Originally Posted by Clive Brown

For the record, it couldn't be more relevant. The car got sideways, and then took a substantial hit in the driver's door.

It appears to have become acceptable to turn a fellow competitor sideways. How long will it be before car #2 turns car #1 sideways, and the unsighted car #3 hits car #1 in the driver's door?

I can hardly wait to hear the sanctimonious 'holier than thou' bleating then....

Point one I disagree with. The O'dor fatal crash was a freak occurance, nothing to do with dangerous driving.

Point two I do agree with. The tapping of a rear corner to make some space isn't a fair move and can result in the tapped car going across the front of the field and into trouble. I'm fine with gentle nudging and whatever, it's gonna happen in the close confines of some circuits, but that's a risky move. I remember a classic Matt Neal move in 2003 when he did that to his supposed best mate Paul O'Neill at Clearways, Owy tried to regain control of the car and speared into Warren Hughes whose race was over on the spot.

This level of contact's been about for many years, I think it's just more magnified with the level of media coverage these days. Think of all the websites following the series, the TV, fans with cameras etc. There is no place to hide now.

[barnettracing]

Originally Posted by Craner Curves

I remember a classic Matt Neal move in 2003 when he did that to his supposed best mate Paul O'Neill at Clearways, Owy tried to regain control of the car and speared into Warren Hughes whose race was over on the spot.

That was at the support race to the Champcars if I remember correctly? I remember disliking the move then (as a 12 year old), and my views haven't changed since.

Alfa Fan, we're not taking the moral high ground, merely pointing out that motorsport is a NON-CONTACT SPORT. It says so in the Blue Book (although I know the BTCC also operate to a separate rule book).

Of course your 'average clubbie' is better judged to comment on the safety and etiquette of racing. It is down to experience. I'd like to know why we're not?

Most of us don't 'piddle around' in our 'grand prix racing cars'. We all drive a variety of different vehicles and, on the whole, none of us want to push a car, or be pushed, out of a position whilst racing. It's been said for years, it is setting a dangerous precedent for younger drivers, in both club and professional motorsport. If you want to see accidents, please, just YouTube them.

The reason we all stay around is because it is still motorsport. It is in our blood and we all like watching racing cars. However, we still have the right to be able to say 'no, this isn't right'. Some of the racing in the BTCC can be good, but it is getting out of hand. When races are won by a driver being knocked out the way, the skill has exited the sport.

I know that this style has been around for years; it grew in popularity with the Super Tourers and had started happening before that, but just because it has crept into the sport, doesn't mean that it has to stay here. As we can all see, the majority on this forum dislike the 'contact to overtake'.

EDIT TO ADD: Many people also forget, defensive driving is part of the game, it is an integral skill, some drivers can do it, some can't (Nico Rosberg). By just simple punting them off the apex, you are penalising their ability. How many people thought that (and sorry to use F1, I'm sure some of you will take umbrage) Fernando Alonso's drive in the Renault at Imola in 2005 was incredible, holding of Schumacher for lap after lap? Be honest...

Again, sorry to use F1, but how many of you that are condoning contact, thought that Schumacher was out of order in Adelaide 1994 and Jerez 1997? I bet lots of you hated those two moves. Michael's actions though are part of the same mentality.

[nicanary]

If "nerfing" usually succeeds, then who is going to want to lead a race?

Every driver will be holding back, frightened to be the one who is almost guaranteed to be pushed off the track.

It's completely negative .

[Tja]

Hey guys, I've been following this forum and especially this thread for quite a while now, I just want to give you my opinion on the topic, even though it may not be popular with most of you

As you may already guess, I'm on the side of those, who think slight taps or 'nudging' as some call it, is acceptable in Touringcar racing. Yes, the rulebooks state it's supposed to be a non-contact sport, but there are differences in what you should do and what you actually do. I'm pretty sure all of you could give examples for that.
Just to be clear, I don't think Plato's move on Newsham was okay, but I wouldn't call that a slight tap either. I'm talking about taps like we saw them between Plato & Neal or Plato & Jordan to give two examples. There was no heavy contact involved just small taps, no one was even pushed wide over the limits of the circuit (grass, gravel,...) just a little bit away from the racing line, far enough to slow the competitor down just a fraction, in order to be able to draw alongside him, not even neccesairily to drive past him.
As the quoted Tweet from Jordan shows, this form of contact is not only accepted from fans, but also from the drivers themselves. Those small 'taps' from time to time are an accepted part of what people call 'Touringcar racing', I even think you can call that a fact.

I hope you get what I mean, I'm German so please don't kill me if there are any mistakes in my post
First post finished

[bella]

Originally Posted by barnettracing

Alfa Fan, we're not taking the moral high ground, merely pointing out that motorsport is a NON-CONTACT SPORT. It says so in the Blue Book (although I know the BTCC also operate to a separate rule book).

taking this non-contact thing and running with it...

if the btcc was a slicks and wings series and if they behaved in exactly the same manner on the circuit as they do currently you'd have broken wings and punctures left right and centre. cars would be flying through the air because the cars don't have bodywork you can use to lean on the opposition with.

for me, that says all it needs to about the btcc. it's dramatic, but please don't think it's *racing*. it's like saying pantomime is serious theatre. sure, the actors are still actors, the technicians are still technicians, set designers still set designers, but in the end it's for a completely different crowd and a completely different discipline. a panto actor doesn't move on to a shakespeare play and turn up dressed up as a panto dame. or break into a chorus of "oh no they didn't" mid-speech. as such, pushing and shoving should stay in the btcc where other drivers know what they can expect.

maybe it's our fault for viewing btcc as a form of racing when it quite clearly isn't. it's fine to enjoy pantomime, but you're watching entertainment rather than outstanding acting. you'd not go and see cinderella expecting a heartfelt, touching performance from the wicked stepmother.

[Greem]

Originally Posted by bella

you'd not go and see cinderella expecting a heartfelt, touching performance from the wicked stepmother.

I've heard touring car drivers called far worse than that

[barnettracing]

This is very true Bella (you really need to get that shift button fixed btw ). That is why I am taking particular umbrage at people calling the BTCC 'real racing'. That couldn't be further from the truth.

The problem is that the BTCC has its foundations in proper motorsport (just like pantomime has its roots in proper theatre) and therefore, the racers/fans of racing amongst us want to see it return to proper racing. Not some glorified bangers.

As Alfa Fan said (and this is the only thing I agree with him about), all professional sport is entertainment. In a similar vein, I no longer see F1 as 'real racing' either, though for different reasons.

[SteveLevin]

I don't believe there's any real racing anywhere. It's all entertainment.

That said, I don't think that racing or fendered cars is entirely a no-contact sport. It might be in SOME rulebooks, but as a general, global rule, that's not true, and I'm happier for it.

Steve

[MarkG]

Originally Posted by bella

taking this non-contact thing and running with it...

if the btcc was a slicks and wings series and if they behaved in exactly the same manner on the circuit as they do currently you'd have broken wings and punctures left right and centre. cars would be flying through the air because the cars don't have bodywork you can use to lean on the opposition with.

for me, that says all it needs to about the btcc. it's dramatic, but please don't think it's *racing*. it's like saying pantomime is serious theatre. sure, the actors are still actors, the technicians are still technicians, set designers still set designers, but in the end it's for a completely different crowd and a completely different discipline. a panto actor doesn't move on to a shakespeare play and turn up dressed up as a panto dame. or break into a chorus of "oh no they didn't" mid-speech. as such, pushing and shoving should stay in the btcc where other drivers know what they can expect.

maybe it's our fault for viewing btcc as a form of racing when it quite clearly isn't. it's fine to enjoy pantomime, but you're watching entertainment rather than outstanding acting. you'd not go and see cinderella expecting a heartfelt, touching performance from the wicked stepmother.

great post bella. an amusing but an accurate analogy.

[MarkG]

and, interestingly, the pantomime villains are so obvious, and coincidentally are a bit ugly too

[oneofapair]

This sets examples that would be well worth emulating http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDAK4jBKmow&feature The antics in todays Btcc + other high profile races, in my opinion leaves a lot to be desired.In the event of the worst possible scenario, there will be all sorts of reaction (too late).The governing bodies coming in with some type of legislation that will also apply to the "piffling" club racer.I would suggest that the club racer and his piffling about is the Grass Roots of motorsport without which the trees would not have their shining(?) examples of "fruits"!! There would also be an ireplaceable loss to the family members concerned ,is that loss worth the risk if TV /theatre, is the veil that these antics are being allowed to run under?? John