[Rules] Bernie wants customer cars for new teams, for their first three seasons

[ECW Dan Selby]

http://www1.skysports.com/formula-1/...-new-team-help

Interesting concept - I like it.

Of course, this is Bernie talking, and we all know Bernie loves a chat

Opinions?

Selby
--
I was always a fan of Mosley's cost-cutting idea tbh. Would have been interesting to trial that out.

[Born Racer]

Don't like it at all. I'm not a fan of customer cars in F1 anyway, so if no-one else can have them, it's not fair to let some have them, new or not. Also, what's to say they won't do really quite well with a McLaren or Red Bull for the first few seasons and then fall right back with their own chassis?

The level-playing field should come from the same rules for everyone, and yes, costs should come down ideally; anything else is just window-dressing.

I wonder if it's just Bernie's way of exposing the folly of the current situation, i.e. "if you don't all reduce your costs, imagine the crazy stuff we could implement to make it easier for some of the teams".

[wolfhound]

If those small teams had greater access to the billions Bernie hauls from F1 in then they could be in a better overall position.

[ECW Dan Selby]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

I wonder if it's just Bernie's way of exposing the folly of the current situation, i.e. "if you don't all reduce your costs, imagine the crazy stuff we could implement to make it easier for some of the teams".

Yeh, it's probably more this than anything.

In fairness, I can't blame him. The teams arn't exactly playing ball, are they?

Selby

[Pingguest]

Personally, I think allowing customer parts - including the entire car - would a better solution. No measure other than allowing customer parts would allow an increase in cost efficiency. If Formula 1 is serious about reducing costs, repealing the regulation prohibiting customer parts is simply inevitable.

[ECW Dan Selby]

I'd just love to see a budget cap that's the same for all. 40M, that's it. Done. Do the best you can with it.

The creme SHOULD rise to the top, so your Ferrari's and the likes complaining about it shouldn't be complaining, it should be another test for them that they should be able to overcome what with their vast experience in the sport.

Selby

[barnettracing]

I always find it funny when people say that customer cars have no place in F1. I think they are great for the sport and they were an integral part of the grid throughout the 50s, 60s and 70s.

Customer cars shouldn't just be allowed for the first three years though and they should be available to all teams if they so wish. At the end of the day, a customer car is unlikely to beat a factory car (especially in F1 as the customer team won't have the understanding of the aero philosophy to make decent upgrades throughout the season).

As a postscript, it always amused me when Mosley was so against customer cars despite the fact that he was the 'M' in March, the most prolific customer car of the 1970s.

[Born Racer]

Originally Posted by ECW Dan Selby

I'd just love to see a budget cap that's the same for all. 40M, that's it. Done. Do the best you can with it.

The creme SHOULD rise to the top, so your Ferrari's and the likes complaining about it shouldn't be complaining, it should be another test for them that they should be able to overcome what with their vast experience in the sport.

Selby

That is far too sensible and ideological for Formula 1, Dan.

[ECW Dan Selby]

With them racing at the best/most challenging racetracks in the world....?

Don't be so pessimistic, BR

Selby

[Marbot]

The Williams team always seem to be the most hard-headed when it comes to discussing customer cars. And that's understandable, because they probably don't want last seasons championship winning car being run by a 'newcomer' team for the next 3 seasons.

Problems are going to arise when F1 goes through a significant change in the regulations, like the ones coming up in 2014. Will it still be possible to have a V8 engined F1 car running alongside the vastly different V6 turbos?

I'll always say that F1 missed a trick by not going ahead with the budget cap regulations. But once Ferrari had got its 'It's my ball and I'm taking it home' head on, it was always likely that nothing much would change at all.

[csirl]

I always find it funny when people say that customer cars have no place in F1. I think they are great for the sport and they were an integral part of the grid throughout the 50s, 60s and 70s.

+1. Up until recently, F1 was all about racing the best car you could get your hands on regardless of the source. If you were a small team with a limited budget, then a second hand car from a large team may be your best option.

If those small teams had greater access to the billions Bernie hauls from F1 in then they could be in a better overall position.

Big +1. Divide F1's alleged income by 13 (# of teams) and you'll get a lot more than the 40m that people often cite as an appropriate budget.

The participants should be getting the profits with the sport being run by an administration appointed by the participants. Profits should be divided among the teams as a conbination of a set fee that all get for participating and prize money based on results.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

Also, what's to say they won't do really quite well with a McLaren or Red Bull for the first few seasons and then fall right back with their own chassis?

sums it up for me. im sort of having the same feelings as this in a couple of threads lately...must be something in my water.

if this happens we are just going to get uber rich financiers (and corrupt regimes) buying teams as vanity projects and running a Ferrari/Mclaren for a couple of years and then going off to do something else once they have to build their own cars.

[ECW Dan Selby]

Although that's kind of similar to now... It seems to be a revolving door for companies to come and go as they please.

Selby

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by Pingguest

Personally, I think allowing customer parts - including the entire car - would a better solution. No measure other than allowing customer parts would allow an increase in cost efficiency. If Formula 1 is serious about reducing costs, repealing the regulation prohibiting customer parts is simply inevitable.

What regulation?

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by ECW Dan Selby

I'd just love to see a budget cap that's the same for all. 40M, that's it. Done. Do the best you can with it.

The creme SHOULD rise to the top, so your Ferrari's and the likes complaining about it shouldn't be complaining, it should be another test for them that they should be able to overcome what with their vast experience in the sport.

Selby

What if Ferrari isn't the "creme". What if they just have massive resources, the best driver on the grid, and tons of money and that's what keeps them up there? What if they don't have the engineering talent of the other teams?



I suspect that that is the case and that is why Luca throws a fit every time it the subject is brought up.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Pingguest

Personally, I think allowing customer parts - including the entire car - would a better solution. No measure other than allowing customer parts would allow an increase in cost efficiency. If Formula 1 is serious about reducing costs, repealing the regulation prohibiting customer parts is simply inevitable.

Surely allowing the purchase of parts or even an entire car, will drive the likes of Williams to despair. Yes, I know that they once had 'customer cars', but the game has changed since then.

I seem to remember that Prodrive were hoping to come into the sport on the back of a McLaren customer car project. SFW nearly had Kittens!

[ECW Dan Selby]

Originally Posted by ptclaus98

What if Ferrari isn't the "creme". What if they just have massive resources, the best driver on the grid, and tons of money and that's what keeps them up there? What if they don't have the engineering talent of the other teams?



I suspect that that is the case and that is why Luca throws a fit every time it the subject is brought up.

Apologies, I meant 'cream' lol

Yeh, this is it. I think this is Ferrari's crabbiness because of their weaknesses. They've never quite got on top of the rules since 2009.

Selby

[Marbot]

If I understand it all correctly, Ferrari are now doing a complete redesign of their sidepods. I wonder how much they'll want for the old ones?

[aridshelter]

I like the idea of customer cars for all.

Regulate that teams have to own the IP of the chassis they are running - which will allow them to build on it and be fully fledged constructors for future years - this will also prevent the top teams from selling any designs too recent/competitive that still have undiscovered secrets that might be resold to their rivals.

No reason for Williams to be upset about it. If they can use a former top car as a base, it might help them out of the engineering black hole they've been in for the last ten years.

It'll also lower the cost of entries for new teams and we can have loads of teams, pre-qualifying and privateer teams doing individual races again.

Yay!


(Although it's a Bernie per-season idea, so I presume it's ridiculous for some reason I haven't ascertained yet)

[Paradise City]

Just Bernie daydreaming aloud in order to push F1 up the headline ladder on the last lap until Melbourne. Once a second hand car dealer always a second hand car dealer. Big discount down at the car-lot I suppose.

What's to stop a have-a-go lucky F1 team from doing their three years and then ducking out? To me getting a car built and raceworthy is a 'certificate' that tells us you that the team at hand deserves to be in F1.

[Born Racer]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Surely allowing the purchase of parts or even an entire car, will drive the likes of Williams to despair. Yes, I know that they once had 'customer cars', but the game has changed since then.

What's your view on customer cars now Marbot? I know you were in favour of them.

Another poster said words to the effect of them being part and parcel back in the 50s. Well, yes, but a lot has changed since then. Think of it like this: F1 is almost a spec formula in a bad way (regulations restricting mechanical developments, but allowing a waste of resources on aero tweaks the vast majority of us struggle to comprehend because we're not aero or aerospace engineers), and permitting customer cars in this day and age would not herald a return to the good old days of triumphant privateers doing it totally on the cheap, but an increase in "technical partnerships" between teams like we're seeing now with a few. This would lead to fewer cars and in a sense make the sport less competitive.

Originally Posted by Paradise City

To me getting a car built and raceworthy is a 'certificate' that tells us you that the team at hand deserves to be in F1.

This is what I feel. It's an inherent part of the challenge and, not wanting to contradict myself after I mentioned so much aero development but restricted mechanical development, I like seeing constructors trying to better themselves vis-a-vis the others with subtle differences (and sometimes dramatic developments).

[chunterer]

I think it would be great to have 'privateer's' running works cars, history tells us that it has been a staple part of motorsport, provides more competitive cars, some additional income for the suppliers, and a bit of tension for the suppliers if the customer team gets a bit too close...

Can't see customer cars bothering the works in F1 because the elite sqauds will remain a cut above because that's what they are structured/geared up for, but it would be interesting to see all the same.

[Born Racer]

But in this day and age of business, business, business, what will be the incentive for a team like Force India for example (a very competent team) to run their own car?

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

But in this day and age of business, business, business, what will be the incentive for a team like Force India for example (a very competent team) to run their own car?

If they thought they would be better off buying McLaren's then there wouldn't be an incentive to do their own thing anymore, but it is only going to be those from the midfield down who would consider it I reckon?

The teams with the right budgets, infrastructure and management will always build their own kit...

oh hang on where does that leave Ferrari (who appear to be imploding massively and returniing to their bad old days!!).

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by ECW Dan Selby

I'd just love to see a budget cap that's the same for all. 40M, that's it. Done. Do the best you can with it.

The creme SHOULD rise to the top, so your Ferrari's and the likes complaining about it shouldn't be complaining, it should be another test for them that they should be able to overcome what with their vast experience in the sport.

Selby

The budget cap was thought to be unenforceable.

Originally Posted by ptclaus98

What regulation?

The so-called Concorde Agreement. The FIA is party to that agreement and thus choose for a 'regulation', that outlaws the most effective cost reduction.