’09 ALMS Season Finale • Round 10 • Laguna Seca • Oct. 6th – 11th

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by Breitling24

By not being totally past the 45, and turning right, so that the Vette RR, hits the Porsches LF... that could be a possibility.

Watch the replay again. I noticed that Jan bounces off the inside retaining wall.

[Breitling24]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

Watch the replay again. I noticed that Jan bounces off the inside retaining wall.

You could be right, JH. Lou Gigliotti posted on the ALMS fan site, he feels that's what happened, because pit wall curves there.

[Gliding_Serpent]

Originally Posted by trahsub

Both drivers have been given a two-race probation.

well done. They need to come down hard on this kind of thing.

[Gliding_Serpent]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

Watch the replay again. I noticed that Jan bounces off the inside retaining wall.

A photographer said he checked and found no scrapes from the Vette on the wall. He initially thought the Vette hit also as he was about 10 feet away at the time of the incident.

[cmk]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

I guess we watched different races!

@cmk, Jörg put Jan in the dirt several times while Jan tried to go around the outside to pass. Jörg initiated a lot of contact in blocking Jan from passing. Turn 11 is the only spot where I saw Jan put it to Jörg, after getting it many times from him. Jan even went as far as going into the pit-out lane to avoid contacting Jörg while getting by and consequently had to give it back for cutting the track.


The wreck was caused by contact from the front of the Porsche to the rear of the Corvette, Jörg wrecked Mags!!



L.P.

I guess you could try and see it that way, but Jan tried to go around the outside at T2 and got hung out to dry. Maybe Jorg denied him the space but it was, at worst, just the same as Johnny O did to Westbrook earlier in the race, and you have to be able to take your own medicine. I am quite sure I remember an additional rubbing incident initiated by Mags but I don't yet have a copy of the race I can re-watch, so I'll leave that alone.

I cannot, as others have said, agree with this notion that poor little Jan had to flee to the pitlane exit to avoid big evil Bergmeister who was blocking him (on a straight no less). Rubbish. If you can't execute a pass on the racing surface, then you can't pass. Tough. Guess the other guy has you covered. There is no excuse for bailing out there and, as has been mentioned, he's damn lucky there was nobody loafing out of pitlane over the brow. The exit is set up the way it is specifically to avoid cars merging over the blind brow into flat-out traffic.

The real kicker for me, though, is the final hit in T11. As I mentioned earlier, the only precedent I can recall for this direct front-to-rear mid-corner contact to unsettle a car for the purposes of passing it is the Mid-Ohio race that resulted in a ban for Tomas Enge and possibly should have for Mika Salo. It's low-grade stuff that even a healthy number of BTCC fans, those most inured to full-contact road racing, find unsavoury. It is the sort of thing resorted to by a driver that has run out of legitimate ways to pass. It is beyond what occurred in T5 at Mosport in 2008 (which Dirk Muller lost the win for), which at least involved the passing car getting alongside in the corner. Should Jorg have let off and trusted the stewards to sort it out? Yes. But can I blame him for being peeved and giving Jan one last chance to back out of it? Nope. I think he feels badly enough about the whole thing, and I hope this is a wake-up call to the Corvette drivers, in particular. The way #3 was driven almost race-long, from what I could see on the telly, was borderline at best.

[Breitling24]

Well, if watching through velocity yellow tinted glasses...

[NightStalk3r]

Originally Posted by Breitling24

You could be right, JH. Lou Gigliotti posted on the ALMS fan site, he feels that's what happened, because pit wall curves there.

Yes but the pit wall curves to the left not the right.

[Breitling24]

Originally Posted by NightStalk3r

Yes but the pit wall curves to the left not the right.

No, it curves to the right, into the track, just like Lou said it does, right near the line. Take a look at it on Google Earth.

[NightStalk3r]

Originally Posted by Breitling24

No, it curves to the right, into the track, just like Lou said it does, right near the line. Take a look at it on Google Earth.

Thats a bit silly isnt it, having the wall curve right on a left hand turn, Lou also said there wasn't enough room between Joerg and the wall for Joerg to do any kind of pit manoeuvre on Jan so that counts out arakis's theory.

[NightStalk3r]

Jan's opinion of the incident "It was really good, hard racing,"

[arakis]

Both Jan and Jorg are on a two race probation!!!

here is an extract from an article on speed tv

The controversial finish sent shock waves through the paddock afterward, but IMSA made no adjustments to the final results. They instead elected to place Bergmeister and Magnussen on probation.

Should either driver commit further offenses in the first two rounds next year, they will receive at minimum a two-race ban from competition.

[fieldodreams79]

the right decision, for Jan's aggressive driving and Joerg's clear punt on the straight.

it was good racing, and yes BOTH are at fault. that has been agreed upon. takes two to tango.

after exiting the corner, the 45 moves left the entire time. the 45 clearly moved left right after the last bumped that sent the 3 to the pitwall. the 45 then moved left again when the contact is made that spins Jan is made. Jan never hit the pitwall, but he couldn't go any further...Joerg kept going left...don't see how it can be interpreted any differently, unless you are looking through your beetle glasses.

[NightStalk3r]

Originally Posted by fieldodreams79

the right decision, for Jan's aggressive driving and Joerg's clear punt on the straight.

it was good racing, and yes BOTH are at fault. that has been agreed upon. takes two to tango.

after exiting the corner, the 45 moves left the entire time. the 45 clearly moved left right after the last bumped that sent the 3 to the pitwall. the 45 then moved left again when the contact is made that spins Jan is made. Jan never hit the pitwall, but he couldn't go any further...Joerg kept going left...don't see how it can be interpreted any differently, unless you are looking through your beetle glasses.

As has been said by Lou Gigliotti, there wasn't enough room between the #3 car and the wall and the #45 for a hit from Joerg to spin Jan out, if Joerg had turned left into Jan that would have just pushed Jan's rear end into the wall and would not have spun him, there was not enough room for the rear of Jan to pivot out around the nose of Joerg.

[cor123]

Jan's side of the story:

http://www.janmagnussen.com/news.asp?NewsID=527731528

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by NightStalk3r

Jan's opinion of the incident "It was really good, hard racing,"

Do not give up your day job!!!





L.P.

[Jonerz]

Originally Posted by cor123

Jan's side of the story:

http://www.janmagnussen.com/news.asp?NewsID=527731528

I can't tell if that is simply bad grammar or a terrible translation from Danish - but either way it's... Jan's side of the story.

Chris

[dxk1]

Originally Posted by cor123

Jan's side of the story:

http://www.janmagnussen.com/news.asp?NewsID=527731528

Jan says Bergmeister admitted that he intentionally ran into Jan. That's kind of like what Salo said after he spun Enge. Salo was not adequately punished for that and if this is true, a two race probation for Bergermeister is also insufficient.

DK

[fieldodreams79]

Originally Posted by NightStalk3r

As has been said by Lou Gigliotti, there wasn't enough room between the #3 car and the wall and the #45 for a hit from Joerg to spin Jan out, if Joerg had turned left into Jan that would have just pushed Jan's rear end into the wall and would not have spun him, there was not enough room for the rear of Jan to pivot out around the nose of Joerg.

don't buy it because there was room, very little but there was room....
notice when the 'vette starts "turning", the left rear gets closer to the wall and almost, ALMOST hits it.

[cmk]

Originally Posted by dxk1

Jan says Bergmeister admitted that he intentionally ran into Jan. That's kind of like what Salo said after he spun Enge. Salo was not adequately punished for that and if this is true, a two race probation for Bergermeister is also insufficient.

DK

Yawn, we know that a large percentage of contact not scored as such is both avoidable and intentional. This is not changed by whether you admit it post-hoc publicly, to IMSA, or not at all. If you punish people more for their honesty (and the evidence is 'Jan said Jorg said', which indicates no desire from Bergmeister to brag like Salo did) than otherwise, you only encourage a don't ask-don't tell policy, and I fail to see how that can be a constructive one. Incidents should be judged on the severity of the avoidable contact itself, period.

[nemanjas]

There is one big difference with two impacts between vette and 997. First impact (in hairpin) was door-to-door. I'd say that it was unfair defending but still no intention to wreck other car.

On the other side, hitting 997 in midcorner in last corner is just plain wrong. I'd call it as intentional move to spin/wreck 997.

But... Vettes are sooo fast! It looks like that next year will be a vette year. I didnt see them as championship contenders this fast.

[dxk1]

Originally Posted by nemanjas

There is one big difference with two impacts between vette and 997. First impact (in hairpin) was door-to-door. I'd say that it was unfair defending but still no intention to wreck other car.

On the other side, hitting 997 in midcorner in last corner is just plain wrong. I'd call it as intentional move to spin/wreck 997.

But... Vettes are sooo fast! It looks like that next year will be a vette year. I didnt see them as championship contenders this fast.

There's something that is not clear about this tap to the rear. Bergy was at least 3 or 4 lengths ahead of Mags just before this last corner and yet Mags was able to catch up an hit Bergy in the rear without losing control of his car. This would imply that Bergy took this last corner much slower than usual and makes you wonder if he didn't miss a shift or had some other reason for taking this corner so slow. If you read Mags interpretation, he too was surprised that the Porsche was there and not already speeding down the straight. A biased point of view for sure but still, it does seem odd that he was able to catch up as Dorsey Schroeder kept saying he's not close enough to attempt a pass and Dorsey was a pretty aggresive driver in his day and should know.

DK

[trahsub]

Originally Posted by dxk1

as Dorsey Schroeder kept saying he's not close enough to attempt a pass and Dorsey was a pretty aggresive driver in his day and should know.

DK

Dorsey said he's not close enough. . .unless he tries a dive bomb. . . .

[broadrun96]

Did also look like Jorg took a defensive and slow line through the corner hoping to break Jan's momentum if he did try to late brake on the RSR. Combination of each making a move in the same area lead to the bump, and yes it was a bump. The only problem for Jorg is the Vette can really launch from low revs and caught him back up going to the stripe.
It will be interesting to see what next year's true GT2 motor has for the Vettes instead of the sleeved and/or destroked GT1 like they were running this year, correct?

[cmk]

Jorg definitely took a defensive line and why not? He could both protect the apex and hopefully check the Corvette up in the corner and flat foot him a bit to negate the latter's torque advantage on corner exit. I got the impression that Jan went barreling in there like he was planning on using the 997 as a brake if he was close enough to have any chance of passing anyway, and he did just that. I think Dorsey called it perfectly - no pass save a dive bomb and Jan divebombed.

[HORNDAWG]

I disagree, I think Jörg parked it and expected to catch Jan out and it back fired on him when Jan was planning the opposite move, and Bobs your uncle.
He then drove Jan all the way to the wall on a straight, not a corner, so any pretense of Jörg's innocence in the matter is hog wash!




L.P.