’09 ALMS Season Finale • Round 10 • Laguna Seca • Oct. 6th – 11th

[whitec21]

Originally Posted by NightStalk3r

Your wrong!


K.W.

No you're wrong!

Wait, now I'm wrong.

[NightStalk3r]

Anyway i blame IMSA for the whole mess, if the #3 had got all the penalty's it deserved for avoidable contact it wouldn't have even been in contention for the win.

[arakis]

no NightStalker, The 45 vierved to the right after the contsct was made, a reflex action, but he first hiit him in the back side, i am confused why no arial futige was not shown or even a shot from the front, cause its foggy from the back

[NightStalk3r]

Originally Posted by arakis

no NightStalker, The 45 vierved to the right after the contsct was made, a reflex action, but he first hiit him in the back side, i am confused why no arial futige was not shown or even a shot from the front, cause its foggy from the back

If Joerg had turned to the right the front of the car would not have reacted in the way it did, it darted out much to violently and unnaturally to be from steering input.

[arakis]

witch basicly means he hit him and the car responded to that hit, by what logic do you asume Jan purpusly hit himself, when the only thing he should have done to win was drive straight not toch the wall or berg, remember he was in front before the crash

[NightStalk3r]

Originally Posted by arakis

witch basicly means he hit him and the car responded to that hit, by what logic do you asume Jan purpusly hit himself, when the only thing he should have done to win was drive straight not toch the wall or berg, remember he was in front before the crash

Being dark and the C6 being a left hand drive car Jan may not have known he had his nose ahead, both drivers were banging into each other down to the finish line, but the last bump that sent Jan spinning off into the wall was instigated by Jan, there is no Logic in it, but the laws of physics do not lie.

[arakis]

why are you speaking in laws and facts, when the best you or i or anyone here could do is guess, until a telemetry analysis is published, witch i doubt it will, there is no evidence, except for a foggy video clip, witch can be interpreted in a number of mutually exclusive ways

[Jonerz]

My view on the incident is as follows:

Jan was driving very physically (as he has a history of) and Joerg was having none of it. It's unfortunate that it had to end with Jan's car being totaled on the front straight wall, but who didn't see that coming? All of a sudden Corvette Racing has to race other teams for the win and when they get a taste of their own medicine, they cry? I think GT(2) will take some adjustment for them.

Chris

[fieldodreams79]

Originally Posted by NightStalk3r

Being dark and the C6 being a left hand drive car Jan may not have known he had his nose ahead, both drivers were banging into each other down to the finish line, but the last bump that sent Jan spinning off into the wall was instigated by Jan, there is no Logic in it, but the laws of physics do not lie.

keep saying it, over and over again...maybe you'll convence everyone who doesn't believe you and win a Nobel Prize in Physics while your at it.

Originally Posted by Jonerz

Jan was driving very physically (as he has a history of) and Joerg was having none of it. It's unfortunate that it had to end with Jan's car being totaled on the front straight wall, but who didn't see that coming? All of a sudden Corvette Racing has to race other teams for the win and when they get a taste of their own medicine, they cry? I think GT(2) will take some adjustment for them.

i can agree with this statement about 'vettes. finally having to race someone in the states and not winning every race makes them push harder...maybe too hard, but that is no excuse for either drivers actions.

Originally Posted by arakis

AND since this is US racing series, and the US is famous for not calling a race a race unless there is a 20 car pileup. there will probably be no DQ, but at the very least they should change the regulations for next year to stop these life threatening moves, had put both drivers on probation like they did with enge!

this is the important part; regardless of Jan's actions during the race or in the past, this one of the worst i've seen. Bergie was clearly a bit shaken during the post race interview; concern for Jan i guess, but not a guy who was thrilled to win the race and the series on the same day.

but since both Jan and Bergie have driven long enough for American teams in an American series they have started driving like them? or is this how you feel that series and drivers act here?

[fieldodreams79]

i'm big fans of both teams and espiecally big fans of Pat Long and Johnny O as well as Jan and Jorg. great teams, great drivers and no matter how you look at it or interpret it, the entire incident put cloud over a great race with a great finish.

but makes for great TV and great discussion.

bring on 2010!

[trahsub]

Someone mentioned it earlier, but wasn't the GT2 ending very similar to Sebring 2007, where had the Porsche not backed off it would have crashed?

Both of those drivers on the final straight were not thinking like humans anymore. . . I doubt they were even listening to their radios at that point. I guess that's why warnings need to be given out b/c at that point when it's become a territoral battle it's likely not to end with one of them pouring a glass of lemonade to the other.

[Jonerz]

Originally Posted by fieldodreams79

i'm big fans of both teams and espiecally big fans of Pat Long and Johnny O as well as Jan and Jorg. great teams, great drivers and no matter how you look at it or interpret it, the entire incident put cloud over a great race with a great finish.

but makes for great TV and great discussion.

bring on 2010!

Agreed.

Chris

[ztnedman1]

Originally Posted by trahsub

Someone mentioned it earlier, but wasn't the GT2 ending very similar to Sebring 2007, where had the Porsche not backed off it would have crashed?

Both of those drivers on the final straight were not thinking like humans anymore. . . I doubt they were even listening to their radios at that point. I guess that's why warnings need to be given out b/c at that point when it's become a territoral battle it's likely not to end with one of them pouring a glass of lemonade to the other.

YES HE WOULD HAVE CRASHED IN 2007

WE SAW IT THIS YEAR in SERBRING. The PANOZ vs. PORSCHE.

PORSCHE STAYED ON IT, pushed while slightly ahead and SPUN HIMSELF, just as Jan did here.

[chernaudi]

Again, some my say that IMSA has set a precident-rubbing is racing, as long as no one wrecks or spins out, and that on the last lap coming to the stripe, anything goes, especially for the win. It happened at Sebring in '07, and it happened Saturday Night.

I won't place blame on neither Jan or Joerg-I feel that both are equally responsible and at fault. But if one wants to blame anyone, blame IMSA,the ALMS, and Beaux Barfield, as Mr. Barfield followed the '07 Sebring precident-it's OK to go all NASCAR Saturday Night special on the final lap coming to the checkers.

You can agree or disagree, but I noticed a fair bit of accidents or incidents not being called out as avoidable contact as in the past during this season.

So I pose one question-is the absence of Audi and Porsche, and others in the top classes diminshed racing at the front so much that IMSA has to drum up controversy to keep the fans tuning in?

[JHamilton]

So, the 45 took a defensive line into every corner blocking a faster car from passing. The 3 found a way to get inside the 45 but was penalized for it. The 3 then lets the 45 back around, catches up, and attemps a pass on the outside that fails because he is being blocked on the inside. The 3 then bumps the 45 in the slowest corner on the track and the 45 wrecks him down the strait.

All of this is the #3's fault? Seems to me that if the 45 had held a normal racing line we wouldn't be talking about any of this. Of course, what the 45 did was legal, but then he shouldn't be surprised to get a bump in the final corner should he? I'm not sure how Jan could have wrecked himself either... he was in front after being pushed to the inside wall. Jorg wrecked him plain and simple.

[Gliding_Serpent]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

So, the 45 took a defensive line into every corner blocking a faster car from passing. The 3 found a way to get inside the 45 but was penalized for it. The 3 then lets the 45 back around, catches up, and attemps a pass on the outside that fails because he is being blocked on the inside. The 3 then bumps the 45 in the slowest corner on the track and the 45 wrecks him down the strait.

All of this is the #3's fault? Seems to me that if the 45 had held a normal racing line we wouldn't be talking about any of this. Of course, what the 45 did was legal, but then he shouldn't be surprised to get a bump in the final corner should he? I'm not sure how Jan could have wrecked himself either... he was in front after being pushed to the inside wall. Jorg wrecked him plain and simple.

Defensive lines are not illegal. (re-watch the 66 and Fernandez battle to see what I mean)

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by Gliding_Serpent

Defensive lines are not illegal. (re-watch the 66 and Fernandez battle to see what I mean)

Read the next line of my post.

[pitviper]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

Reading Is Fundamental! But then again, maybe snakes. have a hard time with comprehension.



L.P.

I beg your pardon?! ;-)

[dxk1]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

Of course, what the 45 did was legal, but then he shouldn't be surprised to get a bump in the final corner should he? I'm not sure how Jan could have wrecked himself either... he was in front after being pushed to the inside wall. Jorg wrecked him plain and simple.

I think your assessment of the event is the most correct one that I've read. Aggressive driving shouldn't be confused with reckless driving. I thought Mags and Bergy were having a good dice of it, something similar to Mags and Kaffer at Road Atlanta. A little door banging is racing and no one is the worse for it. I though Bergy did everything right blocking Mags off a few times and Mags did exactly what you're supposed to do which is back off unless you can get completely aside and try to push your way past. Until the last corner that is. At that point, I believe it kind of went to pot. Mags certainly did tag Bergy that was plain and clear. However, that is what race sterwards are for. Once Mags pulled up next to Bergy both men had every right to bang doors and try to squeeze past each other, but once Mags was past, Bergy had to let him go and not drive into his rear quarter-panel. What Mags did (bumping Bergy in the rear) in the corner is an offense where an inquiry could lead to a penalty that might be justified. What Bergy did was plain and simple an offense that should have resulted in an immediate disqualification. This was much worse than what Salo did to Enge at Lime Rock. Mags could very easily have been killed or seriously injured. When you are the car behind, it is incumbent upon you to give the car ahead room. Period. A simple protest and inquiry might have lead to a penalty against Mags and that would have been it. You simply don't drive the guy into the wall after he manages to get 3/4 of his car past yours.

DK

[Breitling24]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

I'm not sure how Jan could have wrecked himself either... he was in front after being pushed to the inside wall. Jorg wrecked him plain and simple.

By not being totally past the 45, and turning right, so that the Vette RR, hits the Porsches LF... that could be a possibility.

[trahsub]

Both drivers have been given a two-race probation.

[MJ_N_09]

Originally Posted by trahsub

Both drivers have been given a two-race probation.

What's the point? The season's over. Or is it for next year?

[Toddman]

I'm so bummed. I went to the race and had no idea these battles were going on. We sat on a hill fairly distant from any PA speakers. I wasn't until 10 min were left that I heard of the P1 and GT2 battles. So I asked my wife to tape the race on Speed, and while she set up the timer to record at the right time, the VCR was not set to the right input. So all it recorded was a blue screen. And it doesn't look like Speed will replay this race.

Nonetheless, we all had a fun weekend. I took my 5- and 7-year old sons.

[Breitling24]

Originally Posted by MJ_N_09

Or is it for next year?

...ummm, yes...

[Dead-Eye]

Originally Posted by Toddman

I'm so bummed. I went to the race and had no idea these battles were going on. We sat on a hill fairly distant from any PA speakers. I wasn't until 10 min were left that I heard of the P1 and GT2 battles. So I asked my wife to tape the race on Speed, and while she set up the timer to record at the right time, the VCR was not set to the right input. So all it recorded was a blue screen. And it doesn't look like Speed will replay this race.

Nonetheless, we all had a fun weekend. I took my 5- and 7-year old sons.

I suggest bringing a radio next time - I think Radio Le Mans are broadcasting on a local transmitter at all ALMS events. Listening to them at Spa this year was certainly the most entertaining way of following a race I've experienced so far.