Sportscar/GT (and Le Mans) Rumours and Repetition

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by blankfile

Good ol Courage?

Was bought by Oreca years ago, enabling Oreca to become an LMP constructor.

[bentley speed 8]

Heard something on the ELMS broadcast about Nic Minassian willing to start his own team. Seems just a rumour though

[Hawkwood]

Originally Posted by bentley speed 8

Heard something on the ELMS broadcast about Nic Minassian willing to start his own team. Seems just a rumour though

Not a rumour, he's said it in an interview:
http://www.dailysportscar.com/2015/0...he-future.html
It's been on his mind for a while apparently, and at his age, who can blame him for thinking of 'what's next?'.

[Mal]

Originally Posted by Pontlieue

Motorsport-Total reported a few days ago that Alpine, if they decide to do LMP1, would not work with Oreca, but with "a different well-known french LMP constructor".

That could only be OAK, right?

There was an interview with Jacque Nicolet on DSC where he hinted at another secret project ... I wonder if this could be it? There is obviously history between Alpine and Ligier so it would be a good fit.

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2015/0...s-nicolet.html

[FormulaFox]

Future changes to GTE may be more significant than believed.

Rumbles have begun to spread that 2017 is only the beginning of a serious multi-year overhaul of GTE regulations aimed at turning the class into an in-name-only GT class aimed at LMP2 lap times, running only in WEC alongside LMP1. The apparent goal is a complete elimination of LMP2 and GTE Am from WEC - aside from Le Mans.

I inquired with a source of mine that's working on a P1-L program, and while he'd heard nothing of a GTE overhaul that significant, he did indicate that he'd seen and heard things strongly indicating the rest of those rumblings appear to be the ultimate goal of ACO at this time - No Am classes, just LMP1-H for manufacturers, LMP1-L for non-manufacturer prototypes, and GTE for road car lookalike prototypes. No information on if there would be a fourth class for GT3 cars or anything else below GTE.

This makes the LMP2 overhaul even stupider in my mind. The specs only made sense if the class was meant to be WEC's undercard prototype class, but if it's going to only run in the series where it's the top class -the series where owners MOST want things to remain open- going spec makes no sense whatsoever.

[TF110]

So, maybe like pre-2014 GT500 type cars? I can see this happening, but what would lmp2 guys feel to be put out? Theyd need incentive to go p1-L or step back to elms, that might be a problem for a few people.

[TheMightyM]

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

Future changes to GTE may be more significant than believed.

Rumbles have begun to spread that 2017 is only the beginning of a serious multi-year overhaul of GTE regulations aimed at turning the class into an in-name-only GT class aimed at LMP2 lap times, running only in WEC alongside LMP1. The apparent goal is a complete elimination of LMP2 and GTE Am from WEC - aside from Le Mans.

I inquired with a source of mine that's working on a P1-L program, and while he'd heard nothing of a GTE overhaul that significant, he did indicate that he'd seen and heard things strongly indicating the rest of those rumblings appear to be the ultimate goal of ACO at this time - No Am classes, just LMP1-H for manufacturers, LMP1-L for non-manufacturer prototypes, and GTE for road car lookalike prototypes. No information on if there would be a fourth class for GT3 cars or anything else below GTE.

This makes the LMP2 overhaul even stupider in my mind. The specs only made sense if the class was meant to be WEC's undercard prototype class, but if it's going to only run in the series where it's the top class -the series where owners MOST want things to remain open- going spec makes no sense whatsoever.

What you’re talking about is effectively a large-scale change of the ACO and WEC’s basic business model, with manufacturer (and maybe to a degree sponsor) money replacing gentlemen driver funding for half or more of the grid. That’s a very big deal indeed.

There are a couple of size limits in the ACO/WEC universe: The limited number of entries at Le Mans serves as a pretty effective cap, there are minimum and maximum grid size ranges for the WEC, and there’s a need (presumably) to keep ELMS as a way to get to Le Mans and thus relevant.

I can see half of what you’re talking about. I could imagine that if the LMP1/LMP2/GTE-Pro car count goes up much further, then GTE-Am might get squeezed out of the WEC.

It’s a lot harder to picture just a LMP-1/GTE-Pro WEC though. Is that the WEC’s ultimate goal? Probably. Getting from here to there is the problem — the all-pro classes currently amount to only 16 to 18 cars post Le Mans. That’s just not enough. So if the rumors you’ve heard are correct, the ACO and FIA are effectively saying that they can attract a lot of money to their racing universe over time. I’ll believe it when I see it.

[Rcz]

So according to F.Fox: Don't retire those Corvette DPs just yet!

Thought this is just a rumor that can't be taken seriously yet. The vibe I get from the Aco-FIA people is they see the LMP2 class as an alternative to the open wheel GP2, or its sportcar equivalent. So I won't be surprised if they ditched the Pro-Am requirement and it goes totally spec like GP2.

[TheMightyM]

Originally Posted by Rcz

So according to F.Fox: Don't retire those Corvette DPs just yet!

Thought this is just a rumor that can't be taken seriously yet. The vibe I get from the Aco-FIA people is they see the LMP2 class as an alternative to the open wheel GP2, or its sportcar equivalent. So I won't be surprised if they ditched the Pro-Am requirement and it goes totally spec like GP2.

Well they tried to do that this year. The real question is whether the ACO/FIA can actually attract a significant amount of funded young pro driver dollars (and euros).

[YorkshireLad]

Originally Posted by TheMightyM

Well they tried to do that this year. The real question is whether the ACO/FIA can actually attract a significant amount of funded young pro driver dollars (and euros).

With the state of F1 it probably does seem attractive. IF Bernie can't chill all these hotheads, RB leave, lotus and manor tumble. These GP2 drivers and young F1 drivers have to go somewhere.
All drivers need to strive for the top championship. WEC is flourishing, stable and viable.

But filling the grid with extra P1's and GTE pro cars seems a fair challenge!

A decent calendar, with more races will have to happen, WEC still lacks races for a fully fledged championship in my opinion.


End of the day, if a substantial amount of money goes to the WEC championship anything could happen, good or bad as a result, who knows.
Money makes the world go round.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by TheMightyM

Well they tried to do that this year. The real question is whether the ACO/FIA can actually attract a significant amount of funded young pro driver dollars (and euros).

That is not something I see in the immediate/near future.








L.P.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by TheMightyM

Well they tried to do that this year. The real question is whether the ACO/FIA can actually attract a significant amount of funded young pro driver dollars (and euros).

The plan would not BAN Am drivers, it would just remove classes in which they were required - a non-manufacturer team that really needed the extra funds could still hire an Am driver, as I understand things.

I should clarify that this is NOT the high-HSQ big deal I alluded to a while back - THAT is something there's been serious talks about to the point where NDAs have been signed. THIS is just a rumor - one with some good reason to think it may occur, but a rumor nonetheless.

[PorscheFanNo1]

WEC should never had the GTE-Am category to begin with, it should just have been one GTE class where Am drivers/private teams are more then welcome (as has always been the case with GT1/GT2 etc). The "Am" category with mandated lower rated drivers is for regional series like ELMS and to boost the grid at LeMans if required.

[Rcz]

To me, it seems GTE is probably going to be more like GT1ish in the coming years, and remember those cars were very mechanically different from their production counterpart.

[Mal]

If true this can only mean that the ACO anticipates getting enough P1 and GTE pro cars to fill the grid. One hopes that this therefore means that there is lots of behind the scenes manufacturer interest which, if it comes to fruition, would require the ACO to free up more grid space at Le Mans

[Deleted]

Yes LMGTE-AM was always an idiotic invention, and even more idiotic is having it in world championship. LMP2 in the WEC on the other hand I'd keep (C2 was brought along C1 too in WSC) , even with the lamefied spec rules,but only if you would get rid of the stupid proam mandating and went back to "bring what you want" of 2010 and before times.

So I guess what they want is, by the the end of the decade, in terms of performance gaps at LM

LMP1 Works
LMP1 Priva
LMGT1/E(/-PRO)/Premium
LMP2
LMGT2/E(/-AM)/Whatever-filler-proam-they-come-up-with

Probably P2 will get even further dumbed down with something cringeworthy so I placed it below the top GT, they'll have to make decision on which is nearer the top anyway, both won't do it

Elsewhere slot LMP3 above secondary GT, and GT3 performance balanced to be at the bottom

Originally Posted by Mal

If true this can only mean that the ACO anticipates getting enough P1 and GTE pro cars to fill the grid. One hopes that this therefore means that there is lots of behind the scenes manufacturer interest which, if it comes to fruition, would require the ACO to free up more grid space at Le Mans

There will be 4 extra spots by 2017 but that won't be enough, and there isn't room for much more at the end of the pitlane. They'd have to scrab space at the start of the lane (fine by me, there's plenty of room in the general direction where the big 'Le Mans' sign in the bare asphalt looms)

Further options:
- Finally kill off GTE-SHAM
- Pre-qualifyings for non auto invite teams
- No G56

Or maybe they don't expect any growth in WEC at all and it'll just be 20 car world championship like all the others in FIA land, and then you have 40 free spots at LM for the other entries

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Yes LMGTE-AM was always an idiotic invention, and even more idiotic is having it in world championship. LMP2 in the WEC on the other hand I'd keep (C2 was brought along C1 too in WSC) , even with the lamefied spec rules,but only if you would get rid of the stupid proam mandating and went back to "bring what you want" of 2010 and before times.

So I guess what they want is, by the the end of the decade, in terms of performance gaps at LM

LMP1 Works
LMP1 Priva
LMGT1/E(/-PRO)/Premium
LMP2
LMGT2/E(/-AM)/Whatever-filler-proam-they-come-up-with

Probably P2 will get even further dumbed down with something cringeworthy so I placed it below the top GT, they'll have to make decision on which is nearer the top anyway, both won't do it

Elsewhere slot LMP3 above secondary GT, and GT3 performance balanced to be at the bottom

They've already made the decision and it was explained in the 2017 LMP2 announcement presentation, the 2017-spec LMP2 cars will get a 120+bhp bump in horsepower compared to nowadays (target is around 600bhp, with chassis that would also comply with LMP1 regs) in order to remain clearly between LMP1 and GT.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

They've already made the decision and it was explained in the 2017 LMP2 announcement presentation, the 2017-spec LMP2 cars will get a 120+bhp bump in horsepower compared to nowadays (target is around 600bhp, with chassis that would also comply with LMP1 regs) in order to remain clearly between LMP1 and GT.

That is only for 2017, FF said in #7255

Rumbles have begun to spread that 2017 is only the beginning of a serious multi-year overhaul of GTE regulations aimed at turning the class into an in-name-only GT class aimed at LMP2 lap times, running only in WEC alongside LMP1. The apparent goal is a complete elimination of LMP2 and GTE Am from WEC - aside from Le Mans.

[TF110]

Lmp2 lap times currently are mid 3:30's. Any faster than that theyre near lmp1 pace. So thats probably the target for those new GT's, if true. 3:45-3:35 for GT(P), 3:35-3:25 for lmp2, 3:25-3:15 for lmp1?

[Deleted]

Do we really think the horsepower boost and some chassis cosmetics could bring P2s to mid 3:20s? I suppose couple of seconds put nothing earth shattering. The proam driver lineup also bring the performance down in comp to GTs, plus they are restricted by cost cap and freezed development. The constant bopping in the LMGTE also means slowly increasing speeds, as the last five years of have proven us (look at the restrictor size evolution and stuff for example)

I would agree that the incentive is probably still to keep the P2s ahead (though look what happened decade ago with P2 and GT1), however if P2 is indeed phased out of WEC as the rumors previously mentioned say, then ACO only has one race in the year to match the classes out for real.

Maybe FIA makes GTE/whatever-is-called strictly for factories and everyone else in the regionals will just have standard GT3s

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Do we really think the horsepower boost and some chassis cosmetics could bring P2s to mid 3:20s?

It is a 13-second gap to bridge right now (from a 3:38 pole this year to a 3:25 or something), but with better chassis, better aero and 30% more power than today, it's doable in my view.

[Deleted]

How much better chassis and aero is it gonna be though, if Oreca 05 will be able to make it through with 'minor modifications' or whatever it is they claim

At least they chose not to utilize spec tires route (for now...) as originally reported, even with the current Dunlop market dominance there is reason for them to develop and provide good compound for speed. In spec and non-conf environment they could've just slapped together some crappy half ass product for cheap like Hoosier-Conti and others alike, that would've not only make it lame in varietys sake but also dropped performance quite a bit

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by Chiana

How much better chassis and aero is it gonna be though, if Oreca 05 will be able to make it through with 'minor modifications' or whatever it is they claim

They have a year and a bit to do aero work until they have to homologate the car, and since the cars will be updated to LMP1 dimensions, they also have the R-One to work from.

And around Le Mans, a bump in power of over 120bhp is going to bring at least 2/3 of the needed gain, if not more.

[Deleted]

Oreca 05 already fits the dimensions, the only thing it does need is the aero EVO and modifying it to fit the spec engine if not already capable of that

[rich07]

Is it possible to bring the GTLM cars to mid 30s though? That's a big jump from present speeds. For comparison the fastest ever GT1 lap of Le Mans was a 3:47 in a Christophe Bouchut driven Saleen which is miles away from say mid 30s.