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Old 16 Apr 2014, 08:55 (Ref:3393197)   #1
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Manufacturers vs Privateers (LMP1)

So I was thinking while lying in bed the other night.

It's generally regarded as more or less impossible for privateers to challenge manufacturers in the P1 class, which does of course make sense. In F1, however, which I consider to be the only other racing class with comperative techonlogy levels, "privateers" challenge for podiums on a regular basis (Force India for example).

I realize that the borders between manufacturers and privateers are a lot more blurred in F1, and that there is a much more well filled mid-field but I was still thinking. Why is it impossible in P1 but not in F1? Would say Force India or Williams be able to be competitive in the WEC if they put their minds to it?

This is of course a hypothetical question as I don't see anything like that happening but the subject interests me a lot and there's some very knowledgeable people on this board.
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Old 16 Apr 2014, 09:05 (Ref:3393202)   #2
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i think that rebellion has a good chance of a podium this year, there are 7 manufacturer p1's but they are all ne and we will see how many run without problems if the rebellion runs without set backs it could easily beat a few of the top cars
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Old 16 Apr 2014, 09:10 (Ref:3393203)   #3
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Problem might be that the Rebellion cars are also going to be new and with lesser testing....
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Old 16 Apr 2014, 09:12 (Ref:3393204)   #4
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i think that rebellion has a good chance of a podium this year, there are 7 manufacturer p1's but they are all ne and we will see how many run without problems if the rebellion runs without set backs it could easily beat a few of the top cars
I agree, and I have the utmost respect for Rebellion which is probably my favourite team at the moment. However they will most likely need the manufacturers to fail, the teams I was talking about in F1 challenge on pace every now and then.
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Old 16 Apr 2014, 09:13 (Ref:3393205)   #5
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I know but we must be hopeful for them
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Old 16 Apr 2014, 09:15 (Ref:3393207)   #6
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It mostly comes down to the footprint in the media... midfielders in F1 get enough attention to justify triple-digit-budgets. That's still considerably less than what the factory teams have, but only by a factor of two or three.

In sportscar racing, the privateers are lagging behind by a factor of five or maybe even ten.

Then there's also the engine/power-unit situation. Force India has access to the best powertrain in the series and that for comparatively little money... would manufacturers in P1 forced to do the same, I think we'd see more and more competitive privateers out there.
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Old 16 Apr 2014, 09:21 (Ref:3393211)   #7
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I know but we must be hopeful for them
Most definitely!
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Old 16 Apr 2014, 09:38 (Ref:3393216)   #8
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The situation in LMP1 (and sportscars generally) is further blurred by the fact that teams are running to different technical regs. In F1 everyone is building cars to the same specification, just some better than others.
Establishing equivalence in a mixed field is difficult and will never please everyone but it's the price we pay for variety, and hooray for that.
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Old 16 Apr 2014, 09:59 (Ref:3393224)   #9
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I think Rebellion's aspiration of 3 podium positions this year is ambitious but not absurd.

We've had periods in the past where a specialist can keep factories honest (think about the likes of Dyson and Zytek in the mid-00s) but Speed-King's point about the relative scales of investment cuts to the heart of it.

It does raise the interesting point though, that if the WEC could raise its profile so it became attractive to a Caterham / Marussia etc then it's feasible that an outfit with those sort of resources could come up with a surprise, and possibly get the better result than they're achieving in F1. Indeed, if the profile could be got to the position where a meaningful commercial proposition could be made for WEC participation then privateers in general could close the gap - I suspect if we asked Bart Hayden if he could use a doubling of budget and would that help him get better results the answer would be a pretty resounding "yes"...
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Old 16 Apr 2014, 10:20 (Ref:3393235)   #10
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I think Rebellion's aspiration of 3 podium positions this year is ambitious but not absurd.

We've had periods in the past where a specialist can keep factories honest (think about the likes of Dyson and Zytek in the mid-00s) but Speed-King's point about the relative scales of investment cuts to the heart of it.

It does raise the interesting point though, that if the WEC could raise its profile so it became attractive to a Caterham / Marussia etc then it's feasible that an outfit with those sort of resources could come up with a surprise, and possibly get the better result than they're achieving in F1. Indeed, if the profile could be got to the position where a meaningful commercial proposition could be made for WEC participation then privateers in general could close the gap - I suspect if we asked Bart Hayden if he could use a doubling of budget and would that help him get better results the answer would be a pretty resounding "yes"...
Nail, head, hammer, hit.

I think some people are expecting too much too soon from the WEC. The series is very much still in the business of surviving - get through these first few years and all the teething troubles which come with it, and we'll have something very strong. But after only three years, it's unrealistic to expect all the world's manufacturers and private teams to make the serious investment involved in running in the WEC - but rest assured, they've been watching with interest from day one.

All the time, entrants and organisers are learning something new. The LMP2 homologation and cost-capping rules, for example, may be counter-productive, looking at Strakka's no-show at Silverstone and Spa.

And I think we all know what was wrong with COTA, and already, affirmative action has been taken. Whatever happens, it's not possible for the attendance to be much lower than that again...

Who knows, a winter series could attract much more interest and stop teams skipping the first few rounds.

Who knows, the R-ONE could keep in touching distance of the manufacturers and inspire other privateers to enter.

The point is, the WEC is FAR from perfect, but how anyone could expect the series to be perfect after three seasons is beyond me. For such a young series, it has a pretty good profile, but already people are beginning to sit up and take note.

I already envisage that the difference in attendance between this year's Silverstone weekend and last year's - despite the earth-shattering news of Millenium and Strakka pulling out and the inevitable death of the WEC that comes with that - will be a demonstration of that rising profile.

Build it, and they will come. It's just they're not done building it yet.
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Old 16 Apr 2014, 12:09 (Ref:3393281)   #11
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Just to clarify, this was in no way meant as a stab at the WEC. It's just that it's been ~10 years since the teams isynge mentioned and I was wondering if the general consensus was that it won't happen again.
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Old 16 Apr 2014, 12:33 (Ref:3393290)   #12
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i disagree with those who say it's media driven - i think it's more engineering based than that.

f1 does indeed have privateers involved at a very high level, but they've been participating in the series for a long time. they have not only the historical data, but the strong structure in the workforce, the well-established workflows, the relationships with suppliers and so on. what we see with caterham and marussia is that without a historical involvement in a sport that is really based on testing, research and development, they're seriously up against the wall. of course, not having the funding to catch up, and develop their own ideas to the same extent is a big factor too.

taking that concept and those ideas and putting them into a lmp1 context, what you'd be asking a team to do is build a car to compete with the years and years of hard r&d done by manufacturers with considerable budget and resources. it amazes me no end that porsche have managed to do it, let alone a team without decades of building various competition and road cars behind them.

and that's assuming there's a complete and bottomless budget available.
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Old 16 Apr 2014, 12:35 (Ref:3393291)   #13
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Just to clarify, this was in no way meant as a stab at the WEC. It's just that it's been ~10 years since the teams isynge mentioned and I was wondering if the general consensus was that it won't happen again.
I suspect it'll take time for there to be a confluence of circumstances like we had 10 years ago. A large part of it comes down to the economy - we'll never know if promising squads like Creation could have done more had asset backed securities continued to pay the bills, or indeed if something like the Pescarolo 03 could have shown potential with cash behind it to develop it. A lot of it too requires manufacturers to be a little on the back foot.

If you look at previous cycles, in the mid 70s Mirage could win (post Matra and Ferrari pullout, Porsche between programmes, and Alfa Romeo being Alfa Romeo), mid 80s you could see a WR lead a lap on merit at Le Mans (appreciate I'm clutching at straws here!), mid 90s Courage should have won at Le Mans in '95 (manufacturers reeling post 1992 implosion), mid 2000s Zytek, Dyson, Pescarolo etc all doing well (last days of the R8). I don't see much similar happening in the mid 10s, but with the economy looking a little better, the WEC hopefully getting there in terms of becoming established, and a few programmes on the horizon maybe we'll get some pleasant surprises in the years to come.
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Old 16 Apr 2014, 13:22 (Ref:3393302)   #14
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Then there's also the engine/power-unit situation. Force India has access to the best powertrain in the series and that for comparatively little money... would manufacturers in P1 forced to do the same, I think we'd see more and more competitive privateers out there.
I think this would be extremely interesting to see. It would give us a sense of really how good the manufacturers engine packages are.
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Old 16 Apr 2014, 20:17 (Ref:3393492)   #15
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Manufacturers do supply engines. If Rebellion were to run the hybrid powertrain of Toyota, they may as well just be like Oreca's 908. But thats something Id like to see (again) tbh.
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Old 19 Apr 2014, 00:43 (Ref:3394735)   #16
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A couple of current privateers may be doing well as a result of previous tie-ups with manufacturers allowing them to build some world class R&D facilities.

- Sauber have great facilities at Hinwil, Switzerland courtesy of their BMW-Sauber factory backed days when BMW invested €millions in creating a top class wind tunnel and workshop set-up. They'll still benefit from having this even though the BMW tie-up and flow of money has stopped.

- Williams have a massive base at Grove. I'm guessing this came about in their championship winning days in the 1990s when they had multiple multi million pound sponsors and full Renault backing. Maybe BMW helped improve the facilities in the race winning days of the early 2000s. Nevertheless they will still be reaping the rewards of having some great facilities.
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