Hans Device? Worth it for drive and arrive, Formula vee?

[al_sami]

Is anyone using them for club championships? and what angle versions are you using?

Nice to hear your thoughts, thanks

[Suze]

FWIW I've done a Vee race [see avatar] without a HANS device - not convinced they work in all circumstances. I think a couple of the guys use them but not many as far as I recall.

[andy97]

Becoming increasingly prevalent, I think. You only have one neck and one life & you can still suffer a basal skull fracture in a relatively low speed accident in a clubbie. I have used a 30 degree large neck version by Stand 21 (with the flip up sides for better belt retention) in a Monoposto Vauxhall Lotus and it took about 10 secs to get used to it.

I read a lot about them on web sites and spoke to a racing surgeon I know before I bought one and was convinced of their merits.

Funnily enough my single seater version is for sale after jusy 5 races as I have switched to saloons and need a 20 degree one - PM me if interested!

[Eddy V]

Hans 20°: saloons and GT
30°: single seaters
40°: more for historic single seaters.

[andy97]

Originally Posted by Eddy V

Hans 20°: saloons and GT
30°: single seaters or Sports Prototypes (VdeV, Britsports, Sports 2000 & maybe even Radicals
40°: more for historic single seaters.

See my proposed amendment in red.

[tristancliffe]

I bought one this year (a Schroth) at 30°. Takes seconds to get used to it. Visibility barely reduced (can't quite turn my head as far as before, but only a problem manouevering in the paddock.

It's actually improved comfort - I can get the belts tighter than before, and the HANS device stops the 'sharp' edges of the shoulder straps from rubbing.

It might save your life. I don't think it'll ever make an accident worse.

If you can afford it, and a helmet with HANS posts, then go for it.

[al_sami]

Thanks for teh feedback guys. I think I will look into this seriously, yes you only have one life.

So I need the 30deg versiona nd should cover all single seaters, FVee, FR, club F3 etc

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by al_sami

Thanks for teh feedback guys. I think I will look into this seriously, yes you only have one life.

So I need the 30deg versiona nd should cover all single seaters, FVee, FR, club F3 etc

Ideally you should get it fitted to you and the car you intend driving

[Eddy V]

To be safe, try to borrow one to have a seat fit. Maybe you are more comfy with another angle, all depends a bit from person to person.
Would be a shame to buy a wrong one.



Damn, beaten by Tim!

[ss_collins]

With a rental vee - don't bother, 10 degree +/- frontal impacts (the only scenario where hans actually does anything) are very rare indeed in this formula (I race Vee) also you may struggle with vision sideways - another Vee driver stopped racing with one due to restricted movement.

Be aware what a HANS is actually for - to prevent BSF type injuries nothing else - I'm not aware of a BSF injury happening in UK vee ever - its not impossble of course - just very unlikely due to the dynamics of the car - frontal impacts of that sort just don't often happen - save you money do two more races!

[andy97]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

Be aware what a HANS is actually for - to prevent BSF type injuries nothing else - I'm not aware of a BSF injury happening in UK vee ever - its not impossble of course - just very unlikely due to the dynamics of the car - frontal impacts of that sort just don't often happen - save you money do two more races!

I'd guess that Dale Earnhardt thought they were pretty unlikely in NASCAR & so did the poor chap who died in the Mini at Silverstone a few years ago. A + or - 10 deg frontal impact can happy in any formula...its only got to happen once & you won't be able to do 2 more races.

[R59]

When I bought mine, the guys a GPR commented that many people bought the 40deg ones for single seaters after being recommended to do so, only to find that the 30deg version was more suitable.

As has been said - if you can borrow one to try, or even to use in the race - it'll save you a load of grief, and borrowed costs nothing except maybe a beer!

Personally, I'd recommend you buy your own.

Statistics. Lies. Damn Lies. More Statistics.

You can do what you like with the numbers, but you only get one neck.
Would you race without a Helmet or Seatbelts?

Rob.

[steveng]

I'm the racing surgeon Andy mentioned.
No question they are worth having. Much cheaper than a wheelchair. As for angle it really depends how you sit in your car.
I race a single seater and a saloon and use the same Hans for both. I am quite tall and sit very upright in my Martini Renault in order to get in the thing. My driving position is the same in both cars. If you lie down more, then you need to consider different anagles.
I have crash tested my Hans three times (unfortunately). I have suffered extensive damage to my wallet and a few bruises to my legs but no neck pain. It has paid for itself.

[JimW]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

With a rental vee - don't bother, 10 degree +/- frontal impacts (the only scenario where hans actually does anything) are very rare indeed in this formula (I race Vee) also you may struggle with vision sideways - another Vee driver stopped racing with one due to restricted movement.

Be aware what a HANS is actually for - to prevent BSF type injuries nothing else - I'm not aware of a BSF injury happening in UK vee ever - its not impossble of course - just very unlikely due to the dynamics of the car - frontal impacts of that sort just don't often happen - save you money do two more races!

With the greatest of respect - what nonsense. Frontal impacts don't happen in Formula Vee - are you serious?

No one has claimed that it might, for example, reduce in-growing toenails. Cervical spine injuries is what it is intended to provide some protection against.

If the thought of death or permanent paralysis from that sort of injury bothers you, then using a HANS seems to make sense. But that must be your judgement.

Regards

Jim

[ss_collins]

but no neck pain. It has paid for itself.

has it? how do you know?

Before buying a hans I suggest you do a lot of research into exactly what it is for - read the threads on here and you hear lots of comments like 'how much do you value your neck?'

The thing is you must look at the number of cases pre-hans of injuries that hans would have been any use in - very very few indeed to the point where most people can list them of the top of thier head. But you also find that more people have been 'saved' by their hans than were ever injured by what it prevents by a factor of ten.

And whilst you get surgeons / doctors etc... saying you should use one do
have they read all the research and do they really know for sure?

If it was so important to have one why is it not mandatory?

Why is there so little independant research on it?

Heres somethings about HANS - it was initally developed for US Navy Pilots making hard carrier landings, but once the design was completed the USN declined it.

Could you have a shunt in a vee where you could suffer a BSF? of course... but its incredibly unlikely - I personally think you'd be better off spending you dosh on better foreproofing or the best helmet (not the most fashionable) that you can afford

rontal impacts don't happen in Formula Vee - are you serious?

thats not what I said though - I said that they are not that common (Vees are so tail happy that they tend to spin into the wall or go in backwards, but in a frontal shut it is likely to be with another car - t bone - so they do happen just not often)

If the thought of death or permanent paralysis from that sort of injury bothers you, then using a HANS seems to make sense. But that must be your judgement.

I'm sorry I cant agree with that comment - of course these thing bother everyone racing but there are degrees of risk you take every time you get into the car. People should not be pressured or scared into using saftey devices - they should malke thier own call based on knowledge research and understanding

[fazzaz]

"Heres somethings about HANS - it was initally developed for US Navy Pilots making hard carrier landings, but once the design was completed the USN declined it."

Mr. Collins --

I don't know the reasons for your strong dislike of the HANS device, which I've seen expressed in this and other threads. Having researched the background and development of the HANS device some years ago for a magazine article, I would strongly disagree with you on the benefits of a properly installed HANS device in almost any form of racing. There are too many cases and too much research supporting the HANS device, which is why it is mandatory in almost every form of American racing, and in major international series such as Formula One.

A club Formula Vee driver may not be paid what an F1 driver makes, but his live is certainly no less valuable.

All that aside, your statement above is entirely incorrect. The HANS device was developed in the late 1980s, specifically for racing, by Jim Downing and Dr. Robert Hubbard. At that time Jim was racing a Mazda sedan in club and lower level professional series; Bob, his brother-in-law, was crewing for him. The device was patented by Downing and Hubbard in 1993 or 1994. The U.S. Navy played no part in its origin, design, or development.

I will agree with your suggestion that drivers do their own research. I just believe that if they do so, almost all will regard a proper HANS device as necessary as a helmet or seat belts

David Seibert
Atlanta, Georgia

[ss_collins]

The U.S. Navy played no part in its origin, design, or development.

David - I'm just going by the printed stuff I've found by digging into it - notably the Racecar Engineering archive which has a lot of the early hans stuff such as the papers to the SAE. I've done my research and found that some of the other similar devices seem to be better for some types of car - such as the Leatt Brace...

By the way I've driven with a Hans (at your local track) and hated it, so bloody uncomfortable. I had a lot of pain in my lower neck caused by it. But I did note that on your side of the pond they are much tighter on safety in pro series...

so my decision based on the stuff I've read - the people I've spoken to (many pro hans), and my understanding of the devices operation and purpose that it is not really essential. If it was why is it not mandatory. Before hans did anyone think we needed it? a few accidents asked questions but basically no.

I am planning to visit stand 21 (the European makers of Hans) to look into the device more and raise the issues I've raised on here many times with them. I will of course write a full report - I'm not anti Hans but I think a lot of the things you hear about it need to be taken with a large pinch of salt.

[Chris Y]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

..I think a lot of the things you hear about it need to be taken with a large pinch of salt.

Like it was developed by the Navy?

[fazzaz]

Mr Collins,

There's no point in trying to change your opinions -- waste of bandwidth and all that. I will say that I've known Jim Downing since the 1980s and I watched the HANS being developed from the original large and clunky device. I also researched the origins when I wrote the article I mentioned (for the major US racing magazine), and I confirmed this with senior people at Downing-Atlanta this morning. No Navy uniforms anywhere at the beginning. (There may be a research project going on now but it is of recent origin; this might be the basis for the story that the HANS was created for the Navy.) Again: it wasn't.


I also have to say that if you found a HANS "so bloody uncomfortable", that it's quite likely that the HANS (and helmet) were not properly fitted. I encountered that situation with a driver in a series I manage; he even had difficulty breathing in his car when wearing his HANS. The Downing-Atlanta people helped with a simple modification to the helmet, which completely solved the problem. That's why I stressed the benefit of a properly fitted HANS. The HANS, helmet, seat, roll bar, and belts can all make a difference.

If you do happen ever to be at "my local track" again, I suspect I could find someone to ensure that your HANS was properly fitted. I don't know if that would change your mind, but it might make you more comfortable.

David Seibert
Atlanta, Georgia

[andy97]

I don 't find the HANS in the slightest bit uncomfortable and did not even remember that I was weaing it until I came to take the helmet off. Equipment does not have to be mandatory to be sensible - ask Cricketers about "boxes"!

[dasc04]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

David - I'm just going by the printed stuff I've found by digging into it - notably the Racecar Engineering archive which has a lot of the early hans stuff such as the papers to the SAE. I've done my research and found that some of the other similar devices seem to be better for some types of car - such as the Leatt Brace...

By the way I've driven with a Hans (at your local track) and hated it, so bloody uncomfortable. I had a lot of pain in my lower neck caused by it. But I did note that on your side of the pond they are much tighter on safety in pro series...

so my decision based on the stuff I've read - the people I've spoken to (many pro hans), and my understanding of the devices operation and purpose that it is not really essential. If it was why is it not mandatory. Before hans did anyone think we needed it? a few accidents asked questions but basically no.

I am planning to visit stand 21 (the European makers of Hans) to look into the device more and raise the issues I've raised on here many times with them. I will of course write a full report - I'm not anti Hans but I think a lot of the things you hear about it need to be taken with a large pinch of salt.

Maybe the fact that thousands of drivers around the world wear them in all forms of motorsport and they don't complain about back pain indicates that you were possibly not wearing the correct one (size/angle) or didn't have it sitting correctly. I, along with many other people have never had an issue with it, I actually find it very comfortable.

I agree that people shouldn't be pushed into buying one but do you not see it as slightly irresponsible to constantly push your negative opinions on something that will save their lives in that (however unlikely) accident? Car fires are not particularly common in modern championships but nooone complains that they must spend £300+ for a nomex racesuit on the basis that "it probably won't happen to them".

Sooner or later you will have to admit that you are losing the arguement. There are a lot of people for the HANS and very few (if any apart from you) against it.

DS
Honda F1

[tristancliffe]

I've never had a car fire. But I still wear fireproof overalls.

I've never been hit on the head in an accident, but I still wear a helmet.

I've never had a frontal impact that a HANS device would have saved me, but I still wear one.

I've never had a nut and bolt come undone on my car at 130mph causing my suspension to fall off, but I still check bolt tightnesses.

Yes, accidents that HANS devices will help in are rare. But they CAN happen. If you can afford it, why not take that precaution?


Also, the HANS tethers can also provide help in a sideways impact (your head won't over-rotate in roll), and even in twist (just like you can't turn your head all the way when you want to, you also can't turn it too far when you crash).


I think MSAR did quite a lot of extra research into the benefits of HANS. Give Malcolm a call on (+44)208 655 7877. He gave me lots of useful advice and information.

[AndyV]

Originally Posted by dasc04

I agree that people shouldn't be pushed into buying one but do you not see it as slightly irresponsible to constantly push your negative opinions on something that will save their lives in that (however unlikely) accident? Car fires are not particularly common in modern championships but nooone complains that they must spend £300+ for a nomex racesuit on the basis that "it probably won't happen to them".

sscollins is entitled to his opinion whether it be negative or not, If someone feels the Hans or any other safety device has it limitations then they should be free to express their opinion without being crucified for it.

Also earlier in the thread the Dale Earnhardt crash was referred to, I do not think that is particularly correct to attribute the lack of a HANS to the death as the report mentions several factors including a broken seat belt and specifically says “It is unlikely that Dale Earnhardt's basilar skull fracture was caused by head whip or an impact to the chin” The NASCAR report on the incident is here. http://www.nascar.com/SPECIAL/er/download/

Andy
(No expert just doing my own research)

[steveng]

Although I support the use of Hans devices (see above) I suggest that you do not take them to UK scrutuneering....
1.
I was told once that mine was not acceptable because the straps were not tight enough and I could move my head. No amount of explanation was able to persuade the individuals that the straps tension on impact when the belt below them moves over the driver's shoulder. The poor soul was convinced that the only way it would work was if the strap was so tight that I couldn't move.
2.
I was told that the straps had to have a current FIA stamp. My device was bought in 2005 and has no such identification apart from the FIA marking on the yoke.
On both occasions I re-scrutineered the helmet without the Hans and of course wore it for the race.
Wear them if you are convinced, best of luck if you are not.

[Alan Cherry]

Hans seems like a good idea to me, but why are they so dear ? OK I know how much is my head worth etc etc, but I suspect good idea - someones on to a nice little earner, so no decent prices - why do they have to be carbon ? what about a clubmans version - a bit heavier in some sort of plastic/nylon descendent, but about half the price- I'm sure they'd go like hot cakes, and if the manufacturers were really interested in safety, and wanted everybody to wear one , it would be the way to go!