[WEC] Porsche Prototype Discussion

[tomazy]

Originally Posted by hcl123

What do you mean by much slower ?... Porsche was consistently the fastest 'top speeder' of then all... perhaps they (Porsche) are not using a HD package (not exactly) as they did last year in the prologue, their balance is already very good, match very nicely the characteristics of this circuit... difference in 'top speed' between Porsche and Audi reached ~20kmh (is quite substantial) in favor of Porsche, yet Audi engine is considerably more powerful than Porsche, and for top speed 'hybrid traction' is not working ( only count for launching, which is crucial in anycase), so it must be due to aeros (DF e drag)...

Who was really running 'high downforce' was Audi (as usual), consistently the worst 'top speeder' of the all 3, but attending the lap times, the creepy issue of lack of power at low(er) revs seems solved, and corner speed is as good or better... ( they can afford to have a high downforce bias in all circuits - more than the rest - because the engine has the necessary torque to do it, and can compensate for being substantially faster on corners - hopefully they don't overdose the remedy like last year, specially Spa - )

If you look at the document in the first link of my post, the top speed for todays afternoon sesson of #17 was 324,3 km/h, for #18 was 303,4km/h and for Audi 308,6km/h. That would sugest to me, that the #18 had a diffirent aero configuration. #18 was also faster in sector 1 and 2 and slower in sector 3 than its sister car.

In all other sessons, both Porshe cars had almost identical top speed.

I hope this makes it a bit clearer what I mean?

EDIT: We know that Toyota ran difirent aero configurations on there cars and there top speeds in that sesson were #1 307,7 and #2 320,5km/h.

[hcl123]

differences between #17 and #18 for one particular session ? ... it could be different tests not necessarily one with Low DF and the other high DF ... could be real restricted fuel flows to see how much laps a stint can produce... can be different tire testing ... can be testing some auxiliary devices limiting to that function with simple rolling etc ( don't try to see too much in it )

[Spyderman]

Here is the Porsche Press Release:
FIA World Endurance Championship (WEC), Prologue, LMP1
Strong competition when the Le Mans Prototypes first met
Stuttgart. After Thursday’s presentation of the new Porsche 919 Hybrid, the Porsche Team enjoyed productive testing at the Prologue to the 2015 FIA World Endurance Championship (WEC) in Paul Ricard, covering 4,188 kilometres in total. At the presentation of the new prototype, Porsche announced the switch to the highest energy recovery category of 8 megajoule. No other manufacturer has done that before. Furthermore a three-colour concept for Le Mans had been unveiled. At this race Porsche will start with a white, a red and a black 919 Hybrid. At the other seven World Championship rounds all the cars will be white.
At the two-day Prologue, which has established itself as a joint test and fan event to kick off the season, the two works driver trios were on duty: Timo Bernhard (GER), Brendon Hartley (NZ) and Mark Webber (AUS), as well as Romain Dumas (FRA), Neel Jani (CH) and Marc Lieb (GER). After every session a Porsche 919 Hybrid was on top of the time sheets. Neel Jani set the overall fastest lap time of the Prologue in 1.37,220 minutes on Friday night.
In bright sunshine and mild ambient temperatures, it was only some very strong winds that hampered testing on Friday. Fritz Enzinger, Vice President LMP1, summed up after the first meeting of the entire WEC field: “For sure we have got a very fast car. But we are also leaving Paul Ricard impressed by the performance of the competition on longer runs.“
Team Principal Andreas Seidl said: “All LMP1 cars have made huge progress compared to 2014. Such a step from year one to year two was to be expected, considering how new and how open these regulations are. For us it was important to practice and double-check all procedures with two cars and all drivers before the first race. All the drivers managed a good mileage and had the chance to again familiarise themselves with the traffic in daylight and at night. Despite the heavy winds on day one, we’ve almost ticked off our entire programme. This included a qualifying simulation on Friday. On Saturday we were focussing on longer runs.”
Drivers car number 17
Timo Bernhard (34, Germany): “It was good to meet the competition at the Prologue, and we were able to identify areas which we need to improve. I think the Silverstone circuit might suit others better than us. The various car concepts have individual strengths, but nevertheless the competition is very tight and exciting. In 2014 the Silverstone 6 hours was the first race of our learning season. This year I have a top position in the World Championship in my mind.”
Brendon Hartley (25, New Zealand): “We have improved in all areas, but the others have as well. It will be very close racing in Silverstone. I love racing there. In 2014 this was my first event as a Porsche works driver and we got a podium straight away. I am a big fan of Copse Corner. It is a very high-speed corner, and you have to be quite brave. Actually the whole next section with Maggotts and Becketts afterwards is really nice. I think we are all very excited about the first race of the season. We ended last year with our first win, so we have been counting the days down until the first race.”
Mark Webber (38, Australian): “It was nice to see all the teams again here in Paul Ricard. On day one the wind was really tricky, but on day two conditions were perfect. The focus then was on long runs, as we still have to find some performance there. Everyone is working really hard to extract as much performance as we can from our Porsche 919 Hybrid. The team is great. For 2015 everyone in the WEC has lifted the bar. Silverstone is demanding with a huge amount of change of direction and fast corner combinations. It will be challenging. Silverstone stands for pure racing and a great crowd of fans.”
Drivers car number 18
Romain Dumas (37, France): “We have a very strong car in terms of performance. We also recognised that our main competitors are, as well, quicker compared to last year. So it looks like we can expect a great battle at the first race of the season. The driveability of our car is better - the team is ready. I like Silverstone because the Brits are really enthusiastic about motorsport. The only problem: Normally, there is not so much sun. That’s the only thing I miss there.”
Neel Jani (31, Switzerland): “The development and test work was very good, but you’re never finished with that business. Since the Prologue we know that we can expect tight competition in Silverstone. For me it is a kind of home race, because part of my family lives in the UK. Despite the new part of the track, it is still a fast one and really old-school. In recent years there have been more and more spectators for the WEC race and I hope this continues. The Brits really enjoy good motorsport.”
Marc Lieb (34, Germany): “It was a good Prologue for us. For the first time two cars were running and we worked with our car crews just as we would during a race weekend. We have learnt a lot and found further room for improvement. The true balance of performance we will only see in Silverstone. In 2014 the season opener was a disappointment for our car because we retired quite early. So there is a score to settle.”
Source:
Product and Technology Communication
Motorsport Press

[Spyderman]

`Nice little video from Porsche :

[GT6]

thanks for posting enjoyed that

[PascaLM]

I have read that the L4 engine received many improvements with a better injection. So 8 MJ + equal or more power = Porsche can win 2015 championship. Le Mans is another thing.

[Gregory S]

Originally Posted by outnumbered

Thanks - nice video, especially the very brief shot of Rheinhold Joest combing his syrup.

CANNOT WAIT for Silverstone though

Originally Posted by porman

Thank you for the link Gregory. I am incredibly psyched about this season. Very curious to see what Toyota can really do. Silverstone can't come soon enough.

Thank you both. Me too porman. I really like it. It is said that Toyota has the most 'complete' aero package for this season. I would like to see their engine too!

[Hiro]

Some details of 919 here

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by Hiro

Some details of 919 here

Thank you.

[Spyderman]

I did a little exercise for my amusement:
I looked at all times under 1:43.0 done by Porsche , Audi and Toyota on the first day of testing (I consider times above 1:43 as outliers) and calculated the average lap time.
These are the results:

Toyota # 7 = 1:41.0
Porsche # 17 = 1:41.2
Toyota # 8 = 1:41.4
Porsche # 18 = 1:41.4
Audi # 1 = 1:42.2
Audi # 2 = 1:42.3

The other interesting statistic is that Audi #1 did 45.9% under 1:43.0, whilst Audi # 2 only did 28.4% of their laps under 1:43.0
Toyota #7 was very impressive and managed to do 79.6% of their laps under the 1:43.0 "barrier", whilst # 8 managed 70.2%
Porsche was half way in between. Number 17 managed 60.8% of their laps under 1:43.0 whilst # 18 managed 66.8%.
(I removed all pit in laps)


I don't want to read too much into this, but it may indicate Toyota's focus on consistency.
Audi and Porsche seemed to have been running more of a mixed bag program.

Then again...It could all be meaningless.

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

I did a little exercise for my amusement:
I looked at all times under 1:43.0 done by Porsche , Audi and Toyota on the first day of testing (I consider times above 1:43 as outliers) and calculated the average lap time.
These are the results:

Toyota # 7 = 1:41.0
Porsche # 17 = 1:41.2
Toyota # 8 = 1:41.4
Porsche # 18 = 1:41.4
Audi # 1 = 1:42.2
Audi # 2 = 1:42.3

The other interesting statistic is that Audi #1 did 45.9% under 1:43.0, whilst Audi # 2 only did 28.4% of their laps under 1:43.0
Toyota #7 was very impressive and managed to do 79.6% of their laps under the 1:43.0 "barrier", whilst # 8 managed 70.2%
Porsche was half way in between. Number 17 managed 60.8% of their laps under 1:43.0 whilst # 18 managed 66.8%.
(I removed all pit in laps)


I don't want to read too much into this, but it may indicate Toyota's focus on consistency.
Audi and Porsche seemed to have been running more of a mixed bag program.

Then again...It could all be meaningless.

Let me confirm #1 is toyota...#7 is audi this year

[Spyderman]

Please excuse me! I got my numbers mixed up. #1 & 2 are of course Toyota.

#7 & 8 Audi.

[Spyderman]

***NOW CORRECTED***

I did a little exercise for my amusement:
I looked at all times under 1:43.0 done by Porsche , Audi and Toyota on the first day of testing (I consider times above 1:43 as outliers) and calculated the average lap time.
These are the results:

Audi# 7 = 1:41.0
Porsche # 17 = 1:41.2
Audi # 8 = 1:41.4
Porsche # 18 = 1:41.4
Toyota# 1 = 1:42.2
Toyota# 2 = 1:42.3

The other interesting statistic is that Toyota #1 did 45.9% under 1:43.0, whilst Toyota# 2 only did 28.4% of their laps under 1:43.0
Audi #7 was very impressive and managed to do 79.6% of their laps under the 1:43.0 "barrier", whilst # 8 managed 70.2%
Porsche was half way in between. Number 17 managed 60.8% of their laps under 1:43.0 whilst # 18 managed 66.8%.
(I removed all pit in laps)


I don't want to read too much into this, but it may indicate just how strong Audi really is .
Then again...It could all be meaningless.

[Spyderman]

Here is the same analysis for Day 2

Number Make Average % of laps under 1:43.0
1 Toyota 01:42.5 40%
2 Toyota 01:42.0 61.1%
7 Audi 01:41.0 72.2%
8 Audi 01:41.3 72.2%
17 Porsche 01:41.2 85.1%
18 Porsche 01:41.6 79.6%

[J Jay]

It is slightly more than meaningless, while those averages they don't give anything like a full picture it helps to show why all three teams can be pleased with what they got out of the prologue. Thanks for that.

[GasperG]

Maybe a 3 lap in line average would be more realistic if the energy limits are per 3 laps?

Edit: did it myself for 1.day morning session:

1. #17 Porsche 01:40.479 (lap 35, 36, 37 average)
2. #1 Toyota 01:40.614 (lap 48, 49, 50)
3. #17 Porsche 01:40.740 (lap 36, 37, 38)
4. #18 Porsche 01:41.309 (lap 17, 18, 19)
5. #7 Audi 01:41.341 (24, 25, 26)

1.day night session:
1. #17 Porsche 01:39.695
2. #7 Audi 01:39.864
...
37 #1 Toyota 01:41.017

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by GasperG

Maybe a 3 lap in line average would be more realistic if the energy limits are per 3 laps?

Edit: did it myself for 1.day morning session:

1. #17 Porsche 01:40.479 (lap 35, 36, 37 average)
2. #1 Toyota 01:40.614 (lap 48, 49, 50)
3. #17 Porsche 01:40.740 (lap 36, 37, 38)
4. #18 Porsche 01:41.309 (lap 17, 18, 19)
5. #7 Audi 01:41.341 (24, 25, 26)

1.day night session:
1. #17 Porsche 01:39.695
2. #7 Audi 01:39.864
...
37 #1 Toyota 01:41.017

Whilst this certainly has it's usefulness , it does not take into account (in any meaningful way) possible tire degradation.

[Spyderman]

Deleted

[Spyderman]

Nick Holland‏@nh24710m10 minutes ago View translation
"@matlemans: Prologue data - Porsche: 713 laps, Toyota: 610, Audi: 435. 3 cars above 300L #17 (almost 400!), #18 and #26."

[Spyderman]

After doing more data analysis , I have concluded that Audi is on top. They are very, very quick......on average. They also are very quick in the twisty bits.

[Spyderman]

http://www.motorsport.com/wec/news/i...w-lmp1-top-dog

[YorkshireLad]

Time will tell us who's top dog. All my money is on Toyota this year.

[chernaudi]

The question is how were Porsche getting their top speeds so high at Paul Ricard. Supposedly they weren't running their LM package, at least all of it at PR. So my guess is that their package at PR for the WEC Prologue was a hybrid LM/sprint package, or, perhaps, their high downforce package just don't make a whole lot of downforce?

That could also be a source of them saying that tire wear is still an issue for them along with the increase to 8mj hybrid power. If they're not making a lot of downforce with their sprint package, that's not going to help.

[tomazy]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

The question is how were Porsche getting their top speeds so high at Paul Ricard. Supposedly they weren't running their LM package, at least all of it at PR. So my guess is that their package at PR for the WEC Prologue was a hybrid LM/sprint package, or, perhaps, their high downforce package just don't make a whole lot of downforce?

That could also be a source of them saying that tire wear is still an issue for them along with the increase to 8mj hybrid power. If they're not making a lot of downforce with their sprint package, that's not going to help.

I think that they did use the low downforce package at PR, just that they will run an updated one for Le Mans. Interestingly, #18 car had a lot lower top speed (303,4km/h for #18 and 324,3km/h for #17) in the 2nd day afternoon session compared to all other sessions. It was also faster than #17 in first (30.212/30.439) and last sector (43.863/44.140), and slower in the second (25.197/24.650), witch indicates higher down force.

here is a link to my previous post discussing this:
http://tentenths.com/forum/showpost....postcount=1160

[ger80]

Seems like Porsche got some remains of the "Berlin wall" and took them to Silverstone to put them around their trucks & pit ...