Audi LMP1 Discussion

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

No matter how you slice it, the ACO it seems has some agenda going on with how they implemented this rule, and it doesn't seem to be in everyone's best interest. And if you ask me, it's not in the ACO's best interest long term to enact a little-known rule when one of the most attractive aspect of LMP1 this was that variety was supposed to be rewarded, not who had the most powerful hybrid system.

+1

[J Jay]

I don't think there's any need to craft any elaborate conspiracies around this. I'd say it's as as simple as the ACO wanting to have their cake (attracting manufacturers by showing different fuel/ERS classes with similar speeds) and eat it (attracting manufacturers by showing that the biggest hybrid system(s) win more often). Therefore, I am convinced that this has only been enforced in the knowledge that Audi will still be competitive, just not as fast as before. If/when will the revised fuel allocations be made public? It won't stop the arguing but at least we can see the relative amounts for ourselves.

However, I am glad to see that nobody has fallen for the "two wrongs make a right" fallacy with respect to previous rules on diesel engines.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

No, you seem to be missing my point once again, as always. And if you're gonna pick apart my post and pigeon hole everything I write, be prepared for me to respond in kind from now on.

If this is the treatment I receive for pointing out how wishy washy the ACO have been over the years with enforcing their own regs, then I'll probably be leaving this forum soon, and I know that I won't be missed.

I dont understand this talk. You picked on one team and theorized the aco favored them based on their hybrid power. Im just pointing out another team was suppose to run even more power. Therefor the incentive would have Porsche being the favored team. That was my take on what you were theorizing.

Toyota being favored or not is immaterial. As Gwyllion and others have pointed out, this is all down to the ACO seemingly pushing an agenda. You know, like what you and I have accused NASCAR and ISC of doing with TUSCC. To argue that when anyone acts on an ulterior motive with what seems to be some type of a "business" decision--IE, trying to promote something--to say that they aren't hoping to get some outcome that they favor out of it is like saying "Candle in the Wind" by Elton John isn't the best selling rock single of all time as of now.

Auto racing is a business, and almost all motorsports sanctioning bodies outside of the FIA--and even they behave like it a lot of the time (Officially the FIA is a not-for-profit organization)--are privately owned businesses. NASCAR is a privately held incorporated company for example. And I'll bet that the ACO is a privately owned body itself.

Motorsport is a business. I don't like to say it, but it is a business. I doubt that Audi race out of the bottom of their heart. I doubt that Toyota race out of the bottom of their heart. We for damn sure can't make that argument for Porsche. Hell, Porsche is the king of racing for profit! All car makers and OEMs who run factory supported efforts want their ROI from what they do. So do the sanctioning bodies, most of whom are privately owned companies and LLCs nowadays.

That bolded part is different now than before when you singled out Toyota. I think "business" has nothing to do with the rules. Keeping manufacturers interested is another story.

I see this as Audi wanting their ROI (diesel hybrid tech and win races) and tried to build a car to exploit the original rules as proposed in 2012 and for most of 2013. Toyota and Porsche wanted their ROI (hybrid tech) and did the same. If all three teams didn't know about how the ERS incentive would be enforced, one can argue that Toyota and Porsche (if their car was sorted) got lucky.

Thats an assumption that they were going to be slower than Audi, but no one knows that! So who is lucky? Thats what Im trying to get to. This wasn't a shot at Audi. They didn't announce to the world "2mj" until very recently.

The big question here is what was the ACO trying to do with holding off on announcing this until the day before the test? Audi and Toyota had homologated their cars well in advance it seems. Porsche were the one's dragging their feet on announcing which hybrid class they wanted to race in.

How do any of us know this is true? Some news source says it was announced in December, then we hear it was right before the test?

So, possibly, you're right, the ACO, knowing of Porsche's issues in testing, wanted to throw them a bone. Problem is that with Porsche confirming 6MJ, they had to give that same bone to Toyota.

I donno, I doubt any team was on their "christmas list" to give a hand out to. Im just using the language they spoke "ers incentive". If thats helping anyone it would have been Porsche. I only say that because they were the only vocal team about the class of hybrid they were aiming at- 8mj.

Problem with your theory there is that it's not so much that the ACO would play favorites, but yet they might still try for some outcome, and I have to believe that they're tired of German teams dominating Le Mans. Just sayin', TMG is the closest thing to a "non-German" team racing at LM. But even at that, if one wants to poke holes in that statement, it's fair to say that the team's full name is Toyota Motorsport GmbH, GmbH being an initalism for the German rendering of "private company with limited liability". TMG is also based on Cologne, a prominent city in far-western Germany. So by that logic, the ACO are kinda screwed with having a "non-German" team win LM, right?

Thats not making sense to me. Nationality has probably 0 to do with this. Was Pescarolo helped any while complaining about the inequality of diesels? Nope. Not enough at least.

Only thing the could do then is try and hand Rebellion the win, but instead of risking alienating 1 or maybe 2 teams, they could risk alienating all the LMP1 factory efforts.

And like any other business in a capitalist society who want to turn a coin off of something, the ACO want to make money off the LM24, and it's known that Audi and Porsche are probably the biggest spenders in terms of not only entries, but promotion. And the ACO has drawn off those financial and promotional pipelines for a while.

No matter how you slice it, the ACO it seems has some agenda going on with how they implemented this rule, and it doesn't seem to be in everyone's best interest. And if you ask me, it's not in the ACO's best interest long term to enact a little-known rule when one of the most attractive aspect of LMP1 this was that variety was supposed to be rewarded, not who had the most powerful hybrid system.

In order to have an agenda they would have to play favorites. But since each team is in discussions with them, and each team had ample time since 'december', I dont believe so. My main point is people should really think about the ongoings behind the scenes. To assume that the aco/fia would play favorites and not be forthcoming is iffy. They have 3 manufacturers in lmp1, 4 next year if Nissan joins. What message would they be giving potential joiners by playing games? To me, it seems like were just hearing an old story and one manufacturer might be playing their own blsme game. If theyre even complaining!

[MyNameIsNigel]

A short and concise post for a change

Construction work continues at Audi Sport's new home in Neuburg and the Audi R18 e-tron quattro has apparently been running for the first time on the new private test track.

[rich07]

So what is the main role of the test track? Is it for roadcars or racecars??

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by rich07

So what is the main role of the test track? Is it for roadcars or racecars??

Neuburg is going to be Audi Sport's new "Motorsport Competence Center". I therefore trust that the test track is going to be mainly used in connection with motorsport-related tasks:

The new headquarters of Audi Sport will be located in Neuburg, which is where key motorsport units will be brought together. In the future, the motorsport team will organize and coordinate worldwide racing activities from Neuburg – on average 20 races in 12 countries each year. As of summer 2014, approximately 300 employees will develop, design and build all racing cars for motorsport in Neuburg. The new racing cars will then be tested locally in an initial rollout drive. The engines used in motorsport will continue to be sourced in Neckarsulm.

(source: Audi press release)

Now, this test track is apparently also going to be used for customer-related activities as part of the Audi Driving Experience Center:

The Audi Driving Experience Center in Neuburg will carry out a varied course of driving and safety training starting in May 2014. This will take place on a 30,000-square-meter dynamics surface, a 2.2-kilometer handling track and an off-road course. One highlight is the eight-meter-high gradient hill. Furthermore, the central customer center with its own catering will offer space for events in the future.

(source: Audi press release)

[chernaudi]

Is the 2.2km "handling track" the same as the motorsport test track? I'd have to say that if Audi's aim is LM, that's a pretty short track for anything other than shakedown runs.

If my math (and I was never great at math) is right, 2.2km is about 1.5 miles, so the track is about the length of Lime Rock Park.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Is the 2.2km "handling track" the same as the motorsport test track? I'd have to say that if Audi's aim is LM, that's a pretty short track for anything other than shakedown runs.

If my math (and I was never great at math) is right, 2.2km is about 1.5 miles, so the track is about the length of Lime Rock Park.

IngenAix GmbH, the company that apparently participated to the design and construction of the test track, provide the following additional information on their website:

Turn key planning of the driving dynamic facilities
- 2.200 m handling track, optional 2 segments, length 1.100 m and 1.130 m
- parallel FASYS straights, length 1.250 m
- full size handling track with 3.160 m
- irrigated dynamic area with 30.000 m²
- 9 off road modules
- noise and sight protection bank
Key facts
- total track length 4.200 m with 6 different combinations
- 470.000 m² total area
- app. 98.000 m² asphalt area
- 5 separate presentation modules

(source: IngenAix GmbH)

[wdave0]

Looks like a great driver torture venue but not high speed enough for LM testing, great for high downforce setup and GT development.

[chernaudi]

Only really high speed stuff that they'd have there is if they link the main track to the oval device that has access roads leading to and from it and the main track. But even then, the straights are too short for much serious low downforce work.

Main track actually looks a bit like a 1/3 scale version of Miller Motorsports Park or maybe Bahrain.

[gwyllion]

The test tracks of other manufacturers are not that much longer.

• Weissach (Porsche): 2888 m
• Fiorano (Ferrari): 2997 m

Le Mans is not the only focus of Audi. They also have the R8 LMS customer car and DTM.

If they want to test at an European track with a long straight, they can go to Paul Ricard, Monza or Aragon.

[ger80]

Surprised they don't have a high banking corner connecting two straights for high speed

[vincegail]

Originally Posted by ger80

Surprised they don't have a high banking corner connecting two straights for high speed

Perhaps that's because the VAG Group already has one of those:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ehra-Lessien

[jimclark]

'Helluva go kart track...

[JoestForEver]

Lack of chicane and Bahrain style turn 1 &2 I guess.

[Mal]

Lets hope this is not part of a long term strategy to move to F1

[GT6]

Originally Posted by Mal

Lets hope this is not part of a long term strategy to move to F1

Why would they want to move down to the feeder series, and F1 does not allow diesels and they make up most of audi's sales these days

[wewantourdarbyback]

Turns 8,9 and 10 are a Turkey/Austin replica.

[wewantourdarbyback]

Originally Posted by Mal

Lets hope this is not part of a long term strategy to move to F1

To be fair a test track will do them exactly no good with the current F1 regs as they aren't allowed to use it.

[MyNameIsNigel]

The latest Audi Sport press release is out: "Audi designs lightest sports prototype in its history".

The new car makes increased use of carbon fiber reinforced plastic (CFRP) material to meet the minimum regulatory weight of 870 kg. For the first time, the steering wheel column is made of CFRP material.

[TheNo1F1Fan]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

The latest Audi Sport press release is out: "Audi designs lightest sports prototype in its history".

The new car makes increased use of carbon fiber reinforced plastic (CFRP) material to meet the minimum regulatory weight of 870 kg. For the first time, the steering wheel column is made of CFRP material.

What a surprise!

[chernaudi]

I don't know if it means anything nowadays (since most of the "paint" on these cars is a vinyl decal wrap), but aren't neutal colors supposed to be lighter in weight than brighter ones? I heard that in the past.

The R18 this year (like last year) is mostly in matte finish white and greyish silver, and the black is probably mostly bare carbon. Could that (as well as using such light colors as they tend to reflect heat away from the cockpit) be the reason why there's so many mostly white cars in LMP1?

[TF110]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

The latest Audi Sport press release is out: "Audi designs lightest sports prototype in its history".

The new car makes increased use of carbon fiber reinforced plastic (CFRP) material to meet the minimum regulatory weight of 870 kg. For the first time, the steering wheel column is made of CFRP material.

Wow. Lightest in their history! How much weight does the hybrid system add? Wasn't their claim for the R18 Ultra ~760kg minus the ballast? Any guesses, <750kg at least...

[chernaudi]

I read that the R18 e-tron/Ultra unladen (no ballast, fuel or driver on board, and hybrid system uninstalled) was a shade under 750kgs. So around what the original LMP2 minimum weight was back in 2004-'06.

I can't guess, but considering that they used lighter materials where they could, it'd have to be less than the unloaded R18 e-tron quattro/Ultra figure given.

[mclarenf1papa]

Chances are that it is less. Since the car's 10 cm skinnier this year, that obviously helps, and they learn something new every time they build a car. So I'm sure it's lighter. But by how much, I don't know.

And where did you guys read that it was ~750 kgs (stripped out) in 2012/13? That seems a bit light to me, because that means that the Ultra would have had 150 kg of ballast :O I would guess it'd be more around >800. But what do I know XD