[Team] 8 teams with three cars?

[ace007]

Wouldn't we have a higher playing field with 8 teams as follow:

RB (absorbing TR)
Ferrari (absorbing Marussia)
Mercedes
McLaren
Lotus (absorbing Caterham)
F.India
Williams
Sauber (with Gazprom support)

[ECW Dan Selby]

This is very, very pie in the sky thinking here... Lots and lots of assumptions.

Selby

[ace007]

Originally Posted by ECW Dan Selby

This is very, very pie in the sky thinking here... Lots and lots of assumptions.

Selby

That's just an imaginative proposal. The question remains though: 8 much more competitive teams for a better show?

[JacobP]

How is this going to make the mid-field teams more competitive with the top four?

[Paradise City]

The bigwigs will increase their strangehold on the sport. It's a quick fix band-aid stuff before stagnation returns more aggressively. This is exactly the kind of greedy idea that will tempt Eccelstone though.

[chillibowl]

in the other thread where we are talking about this and wolfhound brought a good point that more jobs as a result of running 3 cars can only be a good thing. also there is a logic to making f1 more cost effective by running a 3 car plus more sponsorship space. it could even be seen as a short term alternative to budget caps.

but i just dont see why any team would want absorb/merge a smaller team instead of rather wanting to see them fold so they can eat up their share of the prize money.

sure they would get the small teams assets (property rights to a sub par car and an underdeveloped factory which in the OP post included factories in different countries) but they would also be assuming their debt obligations of these fledgling teams which could be in the tens of millions by now.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

in the other thread where we are talking about this and wolfhound brought a good point that more jobs as a result of running 3 cars can only be a good thing. also there is a logic to making f1 more cost effective by running a 3 car plus more sponsorship space. it could even be seen as a short term alternative to budget caps.

but i just dont see why any team would want absorb/merge a smaller team instead of rather wanting to see them fold so they can eat up their share of the prize money.

sure they would get the small teams assets (property rights to a sub par car and an underdeveloped factory which in the OP post included factories in different countries) but they would also be assuming their debt obligations of these fledgling teams which could be in the tens of millions by now.

If this is the goal then why not simply allow any team to run a 'B' team using the same chassis..... 4 McLarens, 4 Ferraris, 4 Red Bulls 4 Mercedes 4 Lotus' 4 Williams. Sauber, Caterham, Force India, Marussia, STR, all become satellite teams using another's chassis plus one other new team..... 24 cars with the same (similar) chassis in most respects, and probably engines. It would be like the sixties except with bigger and probably more competitive fields.....

Sauber might be happy to use a Ferrari or Mercedes chassis off the shelf. Force India a McLaren one, Caterham a Lotus one, Marussia a Ferrari or Williams one, STR a Red Bull and maybe Dave at Prodrive could run a two car team using the sixth manufacturer........

I understand the reasoning behind the three car teams but I can't see why they cannot allow them to do it now without sacrificing existing teams. Or simply allow all teams to use any make of chassis they wish to and also allow three car teams....

The constructors championship would simply become a teams championship for any two car team...

[wolfhound]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

If this is the goal then why not simply allow any team to run a 'B' team using the same chassis..... 4 McLarens, 4 Ferraris, 4 Red Bulls 4 Mercedes 4 Lotus' 4 Williams. Sauber, Caterham, Force India, Marussia, STR, all become satellite teams using another's chassis plus one other new team..... 24 cars with the same (similar) chassis in most respects, and probably engines. It would be like the sixties except with bigger and probably more competitive fields.....

Sauber might be happy to use a Ferrari or Mercedes chassis off the shelf. Force India a McLaren one, Caterham a Lotus one, Marussia a Ferrari or Williams one, STR a Red Bull and maybe Dave at Prodrive could run a two car team using the sixth manufacturer........

I understand the reasoning behind the three car teams but I can't see why they cannot allow them to do it now without sacrificing existing teams. Or simply allow all teams to use any make of chassis they wish to and also allow three car teams....

The constructors championship would simply become a teams championship for any two car team...

The problem is that the current mid field teams would end up behind a small team with 1/3 the budget. Another factor if you were contracted to a top team who produced a dog like McLaren did this year and the customer team has no capacity to do anything about it.

[JacobP]

^

Indeed. Once you already have two cars, the cost of preparing a third car is not very high. If car specific sponsorship is allowed, then the third car will pay for itself easily. But one reason to merge could be the money. E.g. the first team has good facilities and experience but little money. The second team has a lot of money or sponsors. It's hard to imagine that Marussia is in the position of the second team, but then maybe they have just enough money to fund a third car.

[Armco Bender]

Theres enough whinging and whining already from the drivers of the current 2 car teams that the 2 cars aren't equal.If your driving the No3 car you know your the lowest of the pecking order.

[JeremySmith]

This idea would put a lot of talented people out of work..

[JacobP]

I can see the economic reasoning behind the three-car teams or the customer teams. It's the same: consolidation. The most economically efficient way to supply the whole grid with cars is to have 3-4 manufacturers build a chassis for the entire grid. Heck, having just one supplier would have given the lowest per-car cost, but this is unacceptable for F1. Since the customer teams could obtain their cars cheaply from 3-4 leading teams, it would also follow that they do not really deserve much or any prize money. Bernie Ecclestone and some of the top teams would love that idea. There will be more money to be divided among the fat cats, and the incumbent factories will never be challenged by someone new, because 2-3 years down the road no one besides the elite factories will remember how to build a competent chassis.

There will be a strong opposition from fans and mid-field teams to the customer car idea, so Bernie has a backup plan: 3-car teams. This will still lead to some consolidation among the teams, presumably with at least Caterham and Marussia being absorbed into other teams. Again, the consolidation will reduce the mouths that need to be fed. Of the two plans, I think the 3-car plan is the least evil, specially if we're facing a prospect of losing a couple of teams.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by JacobP

I can see the economic reasoning behind the three-car teams or the customer teams. It's the same: consolidation. The most economically efficient way to supply the whole grid with cars is to have 3-4 manufacturers build a chassis for the entire grid. Heck, having just one supplier would have given the lowest per-car cost, but this is unacceptable for F1. Since the customer teams could obtain their cars cheaply from 3-4 leading teams, it would also follow that they do not really deserve much or any prize money. Bernie Ecclestone and some of the top teams would love that idea. There will be more money to be divided among the fat cats, and the incumbent factories will never be challenged by someone new, because 2-3 years down the road no one besides the elite factories will remember how to build a competent chassis.

There will be a strong opposition from fans and mid-field teams to the customer car idea, so Bernie has a backup plan: 3-car teams. This will still lead to some consolidation among the teams, presumably with at least Caterham and Marussia being absorbed into other teams. Again, the consolidation will reduce the mouths that need to be fed. Of the two plans, I think the 3-car plan is the least evil, specially if we're facing a prospect of losing a couple of teams.

There is another way at looking at this whole question.
If a select few top teams produced a car and could sell the basis of the car, tub, bodywork parts, plus suspension and drive train as per the customers wants and needs customers may want to tinker a little by doing their own 'B' version trying to maximise something out what they bought and perhaps going down a different path.

Or everyone buys a standard tub (safety approved etc) but builds their own car around that tub. Rather than the present convoluted regulations they could just insist on standard front noses and rear wings and provide a standard suspension package but you can bet your life everyone is going to try to maximise the package for their own favour anyway.

The car would be cheaper but they would probably just spend more on aero and suspension development

[littleman]

Yesterday, the media were saying the FIA are going to open it's doors to new
F1 entrants in 2015/16......................I wonder why!

They must be painfully aware that F1 is on a financial knife edge, with 50% + of the grid in dire straights.I'm even more certain now that 3rd cars or "off the shelf" customer cars are the only way forward. The concept appears to work OK in the DTM.

All the big sponsorship money that used to come from the cigarette companies and out-of-control Banks has long gone.These sponsors literally had $billions to throw around........not anymore.

[JacobP]

^

If customer cars were allowed, I really hope this is done in the way in which the midfield teams are not forced out of chassis manufacturing business by Marussias and Toro Rossos that are racing with a Red Bull chassis. A good compromise would be to allow only low ranked teams to build the customer chassis. Say, for 2014 that could be say Williams and Sauber. This would help Williams and Sauber to raise a little bit of cash, and the new teams would have a real chance to break into Q2 without going bankrupt.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by JacobP

^

If customer cars were allowed, I really hope this is done in the way in which the midfield teams are not forced out of chassis manufacturing business by Marussias and Toro Rossos that are racing with a Red Bull chassis. A good compromise would be to allow only low ranked teams to build the customer chassis. Say, for 2014 that could be say Williams and Sauber. This would help Williams and Sauber to raise a little bit of cash, and the new teams would have a real chance to break into Q2 without going bankrupt.

I don't think that's really practical.
A lower team needs to be able to buy machinery it thinks will do the job, not a car they know will line up with the Q1 eliminated. If it has an association with a Mercedes or Ferrari or McLaren and that's what they are willing to pay for then do it.
The reality is they would (if truly independent) not quite get something as good as the prime team manufacturer because running it will be different but it would be a 'customer' version of the current car and the development across a season these days is significant. Building your own is expensive but maybe a way forward if you reach the point where you think you can do a better job.

What people may be concerned about is a Red Bull selling copies for 10 million a piece but its unlikely that they would carry the same development if independent (not STR) and would therefore be further behind. Buts its only a way forward and if you think you can build a better mousetrap others will still build a car...

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

What people may be concerned about is a Red Bull selling copies for 10 million a piece but its unlikely that they would carry the same development if independent (not STR) and would therefore be further behind. Buts its only a way forward and if you think you can build a better mousetrap others will still build a car...

Porsche used to update their customer cars, believing that the car sold to a customer should be competitive for 3 years.
Clearly the car would not be the equal of a works car, but it could still not be too far behind.

[AngusJ]

Why not 3 teams with 8 cars each. The way things are going it will happen sooner than you think.

[Formulahistory]

The question for me is: Why not 13 teams with two cars?
There must me something done (Budget cap) that more teams could compete in a good way.

[fourWheelDrift]

The title of this thread caught my eye and my first reaction was that while it would cut costs I couldn't quite see how it would work. Then I realised it meant eight teams with three cars each!

[wolfhound]

It seems like Bernie wants the smaller teams to run the third car for the bigger teams.
http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/wi...th-a-spare-car

If the small teams have already gone bust they no longer exist?
Is this not against F1's existing rules where a team has to own the IP of their car.
You can be sure the midfield teams will kick up merry hell about it but maybe that's what Bernie wants when really all teams should be able to compete in a financially sustainable model.
I have also noted who wrote the story.
I suspect it might be Bernie fling a kite so that he gets what he really wants.

Or is there mild panic setting in at FOM/CVC as they realise teams are no longer able to survive?

[Paradise City]

What Bernie casually suggests and what actually happens are different things despite persistent rumours of Bernie's goldlike omnipotence.

What will happen I think is that F1 is going to have to suck up the embarrassment of having an 18 car grid for 2015.

No team is going to want to cough up cars for a terminally ill team and any team compelled to do this, by whatever theoretical clause that there is to compel them to do this, is going to be furious.

No team is going to want to shoulder the cost of fielding an impotent third-car prop that can't score points under its own banner either.

F1 is going to have to suck it up and make the best of an 18 car grid next year - and this year. They are going to have to spend next year designing a customer-car regime that doesn't immediately render worthless the design and manufacturing facilities of certain midfield teams. Good luck with that.

Could even see an influx of new manufacturers into the WEC by teams who want to exploit their manufacturing facility whilst running customer cars in F1.

[Pontlieue]

This idea is utterly stupid. If a team is already in administration or close to it, then a customer car isn't going to save it. The teams' infrastructure is all built up to construct their own cars. Sauber, for example, have one of the best facilities in motorsport. Giving new teams the chance to run customer cars for a limited amount of time, maybe three years, could attract new teams to the sport. Giving customer cars to teams that are in theprocess of collapsing won't change anything.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Pontlieue

This idea is utterly stupid. If a team is already in administration or close to it, then a customer car isn't going to save it. The teams' infrastructure is all built up to construct their own cars. Sauber, for example, have one of the best facilities in motorsport. Giving new teams the chance to run customer cars for a limited amount of time, maybe three years, could attract new teams to the sport. Giving customer cars to teams that are in theprocess of collapsing won't change anything.

It would fill up the grid and stop the CVC empire and B1 (Bernie F1) from collapsing....

[Nicholosophy]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

It would fill up the grid and stop the CVC empire and B1 (Bernie F1) from collapsing....

They already have the cars. They can't afford to run them. They can't afford the spare parts. They can't afford to transport the gear to North and South America. Maybe if this was the start of the year and they hadn't spent money on car design, crash testing, building the car, etc, etc.

The top teams would have to give them cars, parts, money for freight, team members, etc. May as well just run a 3rd car (as much as I don't want that).