GP3 2012 Silly Season

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Peat

Must say, in BF3, i really rated Will Buller. In both of the 2 races so far, he's been an embarrassment. Overtaking off the track, thumping people off etc. What's going on??

He was OK in the F3 field, though that has been far weaker than many realise, and GP3 this year is a big step up in quality of competition for him

[ivanalesi]

Originally Posted by Jacques Rabbit

I'm glad one who identifies as a U.S. American got a win. I've been clinging to Eddie Cheever, III. winning in Italian F3 and Félix Serralles doing the same in British F3, even though they have opted to race as Italian and Puerto Rican respectively. Alexander Rossi and Michael Lewis...time to get going.

Good for Conor. I'm pleased, though to be fair, it's not the world's deepest field. Now don't pull a Rossi and win in the opening round, then disappear. I do think Daly and Newgarden have both shown how bad Carlin has been in GP3. Doesn't seem to be the most evenly-spec spec series, in my uninformed opinion. Both those guys are seemingly better than the Carlin year suggested.

I'd agree on Carlin being one of the worst teams for the last couple of seasons considering the drivers they had, but this year it seems like they turned the tables or may be da Costa helped them with insider Status knowledge Last year's field was incredibly competitive and this season's field is much weaker, I'd say more normal, so lots of drivers caught up in the winter. Marlon or Laine were nowhere last season, but it took them some time to get used to the car and tires and they may cause some trouble to Mitch.
I was most amused by Brundle, I really rate the guy very low and honestly can't understand why his dad has kept him racing for so much time, but fair play to him scoring points! Although under this top 10 system, so Buller has only himself for blame being surprised by the level! He was pretty bad in initial testing last winter... so not really a surprise.
The disappointments? Pal Kiss & Ceccon, struggling a lot with slow teammates. Pal Kiss won last year here!

[p-matt]

Ceccon had a whole host of issues in qualifying and race 1. It was a good fight through the field for race 2, but should have been more decisive in overtaking Buller. It doesn't help that Ocean aren't exactly the best team on the grid and that his teammates arte absolutely useless.

I hadn't realised until I saw it on Autosport last week that Brundle hasn't won a single race in single seaters. Says it all really.

[W.A Trichlorostyrene]

Originally Posted by ivanalesi

Marlon or Laine were nowhere last season, but it took them some time to get used to the car and tires and they may cause some trouble to Mitch.

In Marlon's case, I have the feeling that it may been because Atech CRS are out of their game in GP3.

I mean, look at Yelloly, he was nowhere when he was driving for them too, then he switch to WSR, and boom, he's contending for wins and podiums.

[ivanalesi]

It's hard to judge when they haven't had very good drivers, may be except Merhi who got a podium, but certainly they aren't in the same league as ART or Arden. Anyways, I think it was a one-off for Pal Kiss to be slow, he surely will get some podiums or even wins.
Btw, very surprised to see Daly chosen to straight-line test for Force India!

[NaBUru38]

GP3 cars will get a naturally-aspirated 400hp engine, which promises laps 3-4 seconds faster (at Catalunya or Spa?). There will be changes in the nose, sidepods and engine cover.

Let's hope that the category attracts succesful F3 drivers, not karting teenagers and FR2.0 graduates.

[ptclaus98]

I don't understand the logic in this as it further muddies the waters of the junior formulae. Especially with F1 taking a step back in power. Sure to drive up costs as well.

[HaydenFan]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

GP3 cars will get a naturally-aspirated 400hp engine, which promises laps 3-4 seconds faster (at Catalunya or Spa?). There will be changes in the nose, sidepods and engine cover.

Let's hope that the category attracts succesful F3 drivers, not karting teenagers and FR2.0 graduates.

GP3 was meant to compete with F3. Who moved to F3 in the past? FR2.0 drivers. No karters have made the jump straight to GP3. Some have only a year or two in cars (usually Formula Abarth/FR1.6), but that was seen in F3 as well.

Whatever makes the cars sounds better. Even the drivers complain about the noise.

[JohnMiller]

I thought it was meant to compete with FR3.5?

[HaydenFan]

Originally Posted by JohnMiller

I thought it was meant to compete with FR3.5?

FR3.5 and GP2 compete. Maybe the bhp increase by Bernie and his feeder series' is to push out FR3.5, but it was always viewed as a general replacement of F3 (which it essentially has).

[JohnMiller]

Trust me, it was meant to compete with 3.5. I shouldn't have put the q mark last time.

[HaydenFan]

Originally Posted by JohnMiller

Trust me, it was meant to compete with 3.5. I shouldn't have put the q mark last time.

Might have been designed to, as seen in 2010, but when it quickly stole much of the drivers moving from Formula Renault to the F3 grid, it failed. And with the media calling a move from GP3 to FR3.5 a move up in a drivers career, I think Bernie's plan of taking over the junior formula hit another snag.

[chunterer]

I think Renault is safe! It's GP2, the very series 3 is supposed to support, that seems most in trouble from this?!

[bella]

fair point chunty. i don't quite see how they'd be keeping the costs down too.

at the heart of it is the fact you're still going to be treated like dirt by f1, and it's still going to be a pain in the bum bringing guests to see your car in your paddock.

considering gerhard berger (i wish i could spell his name) was going to be giving the fia a reality check regarding junior series... well, it's not going well so far is it?

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by bella

fair point chunty. i don't quite see how they'd be keeping the costs down too.

It's a common Dallara trick called: "Bull**** first, apologize later". You can see it in action if you keep up with IndyCar as well.

considering gerhard berger (i wish i could spell his name) was going to be giving the fia a reality check regarding junior series... well, it's not going well so far is it?

That is the correct spelling to my knowledge.

[jondownunder]

I really fail to see the logic in this, other than trying to push out FR3.5 from further damaging GP2. The only plus point I can see is that the vile engine sound will hopefully become a thing of the past. I always assumed GP3 was established as a direct rival to F3 (whose grids plummeted as soon as GP3 arrived). John Miller: was a car so inferior and down on power seriously planned to tempt drivers away from FR3.5?! Not surprised media and fans have always regarded GP3 as an F3 alternative.

So now we're going to have, though it's open to debate:

Level 1: F1
Level 2: GP2 vs FR3.5 vs Auto GP vs GP3 vs F2*
Level 3: F3 Euro Series vs British F3 (plus FIA European F3) vs cheaper national F3 series/EF3 Open

*(I put F2 there based on power, but based on the majority of drivers it has attracted from 2010-2012 I regard it as a sub-level 3 category alongside F.Renault etc).

The driver pool immediately below F1 will be more diluted than ever.

I wish Berger and the FIA actually had the power to sort out this nonsense. Would be nice to be able to tell non-motorsport literate friends that the ladder was as simple as F1>F2>F3 rather than not even bother trying to explain!

[Valker]

Originally Posted by jondownunder

I always assumed GP3 was established as a direct rival to F3 (whose grids plummeted as soon as GP3 arrived). John Miller: was a car so inferior and down on power seriously planned to tempt drivers away from FR3.5?!

If they really wanted to challenge FR3.5, why didn't they make it ~400hp in first place? That should have been "easy" with the current engine - F2 did it with even smaller displacement.

Italiaracing says the new engine is from AER. Could it be Nissan VQ35 based? AFAIK P25 is currently the only naturally aspired AER product.

[Peter Cammish]

I think from speaking to a team manager in GP3 that the intention was originally to change the whole car and that due to the economics it was seen to be sensible to have upgrades and a major rework of the existing I dont know if thats true but thats the story I got. I fail to see how the FIA can allow GP3 to become much faster, the current licensing rules dont work and just building faster cars is not the way forward, speaking from experience I could have lost my son at Aragon in 2.0 FR it was millimetres from disaster for us as a family and and has caused Dan to miss his F3 debut at Rockingham and has probably finished his season as his sponsors wanted certain events, Daniels accident was caused by inexperienced drivers in what are pretty fast cars that is a risk we all take in motorsport but it still makes you think, Derek Daly a hero of mine from the 70,s was also a very lucky man at Monaco with the accident to Conor in what was a frankly unbelievable accident with a car that should have been black flagged two laps earlier. I am old fashioned and believe you have to earn the right to move up to ever faster cars, I know this is nonsense now as the best way to progress if you have access to the funds is to keep going forward as the talent pool thins out faster, but if as people are saying on these pages the GP3 cars will be 3-4 seconds per lap quicker then I for one dont know were the sport goes, it is simply relying on the strength of modern cars to counteract inexperience and in some cases incompetency. When I was at Aragon I watched in the first and second corners, I am old enough to remember the 80/90 F1 cars and have seen them in action, the speed of the 3.5 FR through the uphill sequence was mind boggling, what we are now seeing is a generation of 17/18/19 year old guys driving cars faster than Senna / Mansell / Prost ever drove and probably Schumacher to a point, I dont see how that is right and perhaps somebody could debate with the enthusiasts on this forum why it is. Speed for Speed sake is not the essence of circuit racing, if thats what people want then Drag Racing can provide that.

[ivanalesi]

I totally agree with you about drivers moving to the next level on merit. This one is totally up to the FIA as they give out the licenses. They don't have any excuses for this one! It's fully in their competence, their federations do not follow their own rules! There are lots of drivers who haven't fulfilled the requirements for their license and many of them are those who cause such accidents. I'm sorry, but you can't debut from karting into F3 or GP3 just because dad has more money than sense! OK, you can be a karting wunderkind like Trulli or Pantano to do it, but in most cases we don't speak about multiple karting world champions, right? Federations give out all kinds of licenses without looking at the requirements. Luckily the F1 super license is reserved only for the FIA, but there have been cases in the past with drivers making their single-seater debut in GP2 and it's totally crazy and extremely dangerous!
Otherwise I like the idea of 400bhp GP3 or F3, this move for me is long overdue. I think in the past many people have wanted more power for this category of cars and it's finally delivered. 200hp FR2.0, 400hp GP3, 600hp GP2/FR3.5 - it sounds fully logical if the drivers step up to the next category when they prove themselves! Actually, the undeserving competitors are the drivers who keep the current balloon of super high prices in most championship. Remove your Serranellis or Teixeiras from GP2 and just watch how the price list for parts gets slashed in half I think proper licensing can be an extremely powerful tool to lower the costs

[Flavio Galtieri]

I quite agree Peter. Going faster alone doesn't mean better racing, it just means higher speed accidents for the untrained rich kids who land the drives and then cause other people to get caught up in their crash.

As ivanalesi says, its all down to the nonsensical licensing system, where we have currently a 15 year old child driving a 500bhp F2 car having had a years "experience" in Formula Pilota, China.....a recipe for tragedy one day.

The FIA should get a grip and insist of a minimum level of achievement, or at least experience, before moving up a grade.

[Peter Cammish]

The issue is competency if you race 2 years in F Ford wheel to wheel and have less than 10k of crash damage win races etc and finish high up in the championship you are probably ready for a step, if you come from finishing 29th in KF2
in Europe you probably are not ready for a 150 mph car with good levels of downforce , big brakes etc, but the thing is you generally crash them and walk away so nobody gets worked up, this is dangerous in itself, F1 built up to Imola tradegies over a series of years, the Ambulance is the most used vehicle in WSR at the moment so I hope we dont sleep walk towards another weekend of tragedy, and my contention is that there is no need for ever faster cars, safer cars 100% , slower cars for young guys out of karting is the way to go it will encourage more people into cars as slower cars have slower accidents and bills drop freeing up budgets, to be honest if you can afford to crash a lot you need a different hobby as its gonna bite you one day, Dan has done FR 2.0 and FF the current FR 2.0 is a much faster and much safer car but for me you need the time in FF to get used to running close, the guy who rolled into Dan basically didnt work out the closing speeds when running for a long time in a "tow" and missed his braking point, how do I know me and the guys Dad had a conversation in the Hospital, he was a genuine man and I hope his son recovers quickly from his leg break and he will learn
and if you have seen the accident he is lucky to have a second chance so for me its a very hard way to learn and junior sport should be about enjoyment and learning and that is what single seater motorsport has forgot in my opinion (for what its worth!!!!!).

[HaydenFan]

Originally Posted by Peter Cammish

Speed for Speed sake is not the essence of circuit racing, if thats what people want then Drag Racing can provide that.

Without going into details, what do sponsors say about the speed though? Is there a push by the outside money to get faster cars? I know in America, some of the sponsors I talked with, one of the questions raised, as single seater racing is still a bit unknown was, "How fast do the cars go?" Not before asking about how many cars are the in field. Where they race. But how fast the cars are.

Same could be said about the television packages. Racing in the U.S. does not have no where near the level of television coverage of the junior formula in Europe. Is that outside pressure to get viewers pushing the speeds up?

I know racers love going fast, even James May likes to go fast, but most drivers and people within motorsport know the limits of what speeds a class or what a driver should go at. But I can't believe those are driving the move to faster cars. You see the likes of Sirotkin in Auto GP, the 15 year old's running F2, and while they have proven they can run competitively, like you said about your son's incident, as well as the Conor Daly incident, speed is one thing, but maturity and experience is another. So how are these drivers getting their licenses? Yes, many of these kids are running top level karting equipment, and some are putting in the results, but at 15, 16, even 18, is it safe? Is it safe putting money and trying to grow the sport over the health of the people actually competing in it?

[FFfan]

I've been banging this particular drum for ages but it seems we are in the minority. Drivers should have to start at a particular level and should only be allowed to move up through the ranks when results merit it but lets face it its never going to happen.

I remember the final British FF round at Silverstone last year. There were several F3 team managers buzzing around the FF paddock. Not one of them bothered talking to Scott who had already wrapped up the title and broken practically every known record in the book for the class. We all know exactly why!!

Peter hope Dan makes a speedy recovery and gets back into a car soon.

Dominic Malvern

[bella]

slightly off topic, and it's my pet soapbox at the moment but wsr spa shouldn't have happened because of the weather, qed. both the serious accidents wouldn't have happened if the visibility hadn't been pretty much zero at the time. the organisers need to play their part too.

back on topic, and i agree with everything. i also don't think there's a good example being set at the top - for example how is it that maldonado can be such an idiot in f1 and he hasn't been kicked hard by the stewards? it's saying to everyone on all sides that it's tolerated. this is peoples lives at stake. going fast is not the be all and end all. i'd rather see an INSANE formula ford race with passing left right and centre than a bunch of overpowered vacuum cleaners racing around. gp3 really should be something really basic and slow (like fford) that actually allows young drivers to showcase themselves. then they can go off elsewhere with that recognition and race in something else before going back to gp2 as proper drivers - the kind of serious racers that sam bird and jules bianchi are. if you watch the fr3.5 races this year and follow what they're doing you'll know what i mean - their racecraft is superb. in our current system it's cost them an arm and a leg to learn all that, but they shouldn't be the exception to a rule. they should all be able to race with a bit of brains. why are they that good? bianchi's done 2 seasons of f3, a year and 2 seasons of frenault, 2 seasons of gp2. bird's done 3 seasons of f3, 2 seasons of gp2, fbmw and frenault uk. that's the kind of experience you want from someone in serious cars...

so part of the problem is making it affordable for as many drivers as possible to take their time on the ladder, isn't it? all the while making sure that someone doesn't just jump the steps for the sake of it.

[HaydenFan]

Originally Posted by FFfan

I've been banging this particular drum for ages but it seems we are in the minority. Drivers should have to start at a particular level and should only be allowed to move up through the ranks when results merit it but lets face it its never going to happen.

I remember the final British FF round at Silverstone last year. There were several F3 team managers buzzing around the FF paddock. Not one of them bothered talking to Scott who had already wrapped up the title and broken practically every known record in the book for the class. We all know exactly why!!

Peter hope Dan makes a speedy recovery and gets back into a car soon.

Dominic Malvern

I don't think we are, we just don't have the money/power. I wonder how many GP3 teams are actually happy about this new car. They might be okay with buying a new chassis, but with higher speeds, that brings bigger crashes, and that means more crash expenses for them.