Interesting Item on New Chassis in Indy Star (Merged)

[JagtechOhio]

First off Ryan, this is naive beyond belief:

"...so the people that have run Indycar racing for the first time in 25 years listened to the fans' opinion on the issue..."

Forget it, I erased the whole post and you can slam me any way you want. You don't understand the issues, so you won't understand my repeated explanations.

Knock yourself out.

[Canada ALMS fan]

Originally Posted by 6157

Any point he makes should just generally be disregarded. He's a fan masquerading as an insider based on the sole fact that he was self-published on one of the lowliest regarded blogs.

And you are who exactly?? You are an anonymous poster on a message board. Please enlighten us. At least Andy gives his real name and has put genuine thought into this matter rather than just looking down his self important nose to criticize others who have a different view.
As an "anti-spec" crowd card carrying member this series has just become an irrelevant second tier series. I was holding out hope for real change but the press release is a thinly veiled attempt at hiding the fact they selected Dallara. Cell, tub, rear wing, suspension - it's gonna be a grid of Dallara's again, and, guess what? To add insult Penske and Ganassi will still be up front. I don't give a sh*t if they have different front wings!
Oh well, at least there is still F1 and the LMP and GT classes in the ALMS for REAL innovation.

[dj4monie]

Jagtech is right this is MAJOR FAIL for Indy Car. Unless Honda is going to invest in an all new engine that will not be a stress member of the chassis, all bets are off, this is a really poor idea because once the ideal aero packages are found, guess what everybody will be running....

Also no other engine suppliers are signed up and I see nothing to be excited about, keep it movin.

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by Canada ALMS fan

And you are who exactly?? You are an anonymous poster on a message board. Please enlighten us. At least Andy gives his real name and has put genuine thought into this matter rather than just looking down his self important nose to criticize others who have a different view.
As an "anti-spec" crowd card carrying member this series has just become an irrelevant second tier series. I was holding out hope for real change but the press release is a thinly veiled attempt at hiding the fact they selected Dallara. Cell, tub, rear wing, suspension - it's gonna be a grid of Dallara's again, and, guess what? To add insult Penske and Ganassi will still be up front. I don't give a sh*t if they have different front wings!
Oh well, at least there is still F1 and the LMP and GT classes in the ALMS for REAL innovation.

Methinks he's a shill for Indiana Pacers or maybe Hoosiers or ..... Nevermind I think he's a paid plant from Indy car. As Sam Collins of Racecar Engineering said "Its GP2 in a skirt"...

Don't worry 6157 that doesn't mean we won't watch it slowly circle the drain of irrelevance.

But if you have the ear of management tell them to fire Marty Reid PLEASE, we want Paul Page back for any ABC broadcast, I can tolerate Jenkins and please do something about Buhl he's painful.

[JagtechOhio]

Canada, I think you and dj are on the right page. We can all hope for variety, but there is no reason to expect it.

At least by updating and the old gear and matching performance levels, there would have been two packages for sure. And the option for teams to defer some of the costs.

The kicker from the Cotman tweets above is that teams will not be able to evaluate performance of a body kit before they place a order. So an owner would look at the CFD data, examine the panels, and gamble his $70K per kit that the car would outperform the spec Dallara aero. Or not.

One point I may have gotten wrong: Oreo at ESPN published engine lease prices today that are about $100K lower than the numbers I have been using. Those came from Berkman's (HPD) quote to Gordon Kirby in May: hopefully Oreo will answer the request for confirmation of the lower price.

[JagtechOhio]

Reading the "Interesting Item on the new chassis" thread from the beginning is a hoot. Just about everbody participating in it has called this deal pretty accurately from the start...much more accurately than other U.S. forums or the bloggers who lift their information from them.

My personal early favorite is post #123 from Feb. 6:

"So here’s my editorial. I’m guessing that after 65 years, the Hulman family and all that is IMS and IICS have a deep relationship with local and State politics. The Mayor of Indianapolis led a delegation to Europe last fall (source: Indiana Business Journal) to develop the business relationships that would find investors and create jobs for Speedway. Didn’t Mr. Dallara’s public committment just seal the deal?

Game over. "

[RacingNeedsRealTVcoverage]

I am warming up to the new concept, but I would have much rather had an open formula. At least that is still available in the Pikes Peak Intl Hill Climb..

[JagtechOhio]

Did you see Millen's Hyundai/Jag? Freaking awesome. I might be a new rally car fan.

[climb]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

So effectively the new car is a Dallara/Honda with aero styling by the manufacturer of your choice.

What if the Dallara rolling chassis/tub turns out to be rubbish, what then?

the last 15 years should reassure you

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I know HRT F1 team ran out of money, so they couldn't pay for the car's improvements but what were Dallara doing, building a car that needed so maney improvements in the first place?

that car didn't need more improvements than others; actually cos of HRT financial issues, it had no improvements at all , and despite that, the gap from the best (which had a lot of improvements!) has decreased throughout the season, which means that the basic design was not that bad.

[climb]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

...
For the business savvy posters, particularly the ones who have been reading the "New Chassis" thread since it began (or my worthless blog), the following quote will look familiar. Only this time the author is Paul Tracy, and he wrote it today.


paultracy3
Insider
Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 198
"2012 will cost a extra 1 million"

"At this point I am told to run a 1 car deal . Allready owning the cars and some spares cost about 4.5 -5 mil . That has some crash damage built into the budget and no driver salary unles you finish in the top 5 where it pays well . 2 new cars some spares and a extra wing body kit from another suplyer will add about 1 million to the season budget ... So where is the reduction in cost I ask ?????"

I see your point, but following this reasoning they should keep the current chassis forever...
when you start a new one (and it has to hsappen, sooner or later) obviously you have this kinda problems (also dallara will, I guess) but the challenge is to recover from it via new savings in the shortest time possible.

[Birddog07]

In alittle way, this reminds me of Moto2, and those have always been great races with lush healthy grids. I think this is a good route for cost cutting and variety. Hopefully various engine manufactuers will want to compete. Any word on if the Indy Lights will use this aswell, atleast the same Dalarla full cars and then can develop if teams step up to full IndyCar?

Now for cost cutting all they need to do is get rid of all the nasty crash-breeding ovals and the extra expensive bodywork and parts that come with them. Or atleast have only one main aero package with small stuff basically different wings.

[JagtechOhio]

Keeping the old car forever is not the point, climb.

Barhart's agrument against keeping the current Dallara is the cost. Let's look at the cost of the tubs for a minute.

The new chassis is projected to cost 45% less. Some portion of that reduction will be in the cost of the tub, right? Why?

The materials and manufacturing process are not likely to change much, so production cost (after R&D) should be similar. But Dallara has stated that European labor is more expensive, and shipping is of course an addition. The currency exchange rate can also affect the U.S. price: those are the reasons Dallara gave for moving their manufacturing to Indy, and have considered it since 2002.

So the U.S. plant gets built, and the carbon fiber team is assembled. Let then cook a run of 2011 tubs in the old molds. Get the wrinkles ironed out of the process, so nobody gets stuck with a bad one like SFR did.

Maybe punch out a few with the new bulkhead installed, the one laid out to accept the new V6. A lot cheaper then they used to be, right?

Then, a team like the one Tracy described has a few options. They might not be able to come up with the extra $1M for their new gear...but two new 2011 tubs might only cost them $200-$300K. Maybe they only need one.

And they could retrofit the new V6 if they were ambitious, which would drop their engine lease cost. Run another year or two if finances dictate their position, and still have old gear to sell to a low budget start-up.

It always used to be done that way. Worst case is it gives you variety on the grid and keeps teams there, even if some are backmarkers to the big guys with the new chassis. At the very least, you have a usable T car or a ride for an Indy one-off entry.

[marcostraz]

I didn't understand: will the two kits per season be considered for all races or two for ovals and two for the road courses?

[climb]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

...

The materials and manufacturing process are not likely to change much, so production cost (after R&D) should be similar.

Surely not. the current tub dates back to 2003; in the meantime techniques of carbon fibre manufacturing have made huge steps forward; now you can design a tub that may seem similar, but putting together many little changes, you can save up to 50% in working time (which is the main issue about composite parts).
Moreover new fibers have been invented and today you can save some plies, so you can save on raw materials, too.
And about old molds, you have to consider that after many years you cannot pretend they're still usable like if they were brand-new: most of them would surely demand a deep (and costly) maintenance work, some could demand a replacement.

About exchange rates, they go up and down and cannot be an issue in a long term perspective

Other things you say are basically true, but, once again, if the savings presented prove true, its gonna be a short lasting trouble. Of course some small and weaker teams could be pulled out, or forced to join forces like it usually happens in this cases.

[marcostraz]

My opinion is: this choice can be good, or not. It’s difficult to say now if this choice is totally good or totally bad. I’m agree with the article about the fact that after a lot ot disucssions, the results is that Dallara was before and Dallara is now, but I think there are many possible positive thing: for example, this choice could be interesting for some outisde the series to come in without having to spend a lot of money…so we can see many “artisans” that have to build not the entire car, but only few parts…maybe, we can see kit come from other series…for example, a good F1 aero kit could be installed on the new Indy cars…I think about the connection between KV Racing Technology and Lotus Cars…or a F1 (or other series) team could be enter for the Indy 500 with only a chassis to buy, but with the rest of the car from themselves..onother interesting aspect, maybe an engine manufacturer could be build an own aero kit to install with its engine…these are all possible aspects…maybe they will happen, maybe not…

[JagtechOhio]

OK climb, I got your flava. Maybe you can come up with a good cost estimate for one of the obsolete tubs still coming out of the clapped out molds then.

As for the engine lease cost, here is the old figure from Berkman of HPD, in Gordon Kirby's article of 4/26/10:

"The number that we've been talking about has been about a 25 percent reduction from the current lease price. You can do the math, but the current lease price is $935,000. If we have competition, I want to use that number. If we don't have competition, and I've got guaranteed sole supply for the entire field for two years, I can probably do better than that."

The latest figures from yesterday's ESPN.com article by John Oreovicz:

"Current engine supplier Honda is expected to continue in the IndyCar Series, with or without competition. On Wednesday, IndyCar officials revealed that the 2012 engine will feature up to 100 extra horsepower in the "push-to-pass" function, and that prices for a year-long engine lease will be capped at $690,000 if there is competition between manufacturers and $575,000 if there is a sole supplier."

John verified that report on Facebook:John Oreovicz
"Engine numbers were provided Wednesday by the IRL. I don't know if anyone else reported them."

[JagtechOhio]

Here is the motherlode, published a couple of hours ago by Speed's Marshall Pruett. New info:

"Technical Tidbits

• The 2012 engines will be full stressed members, identical to the current Honda and all of the previous IndyCar engines for the past three decades. According to one ICONIC panel member, many of the discussions they held with auto manufacturers yielded responses that favored non-production-based engines, and as a result, the panel chose not to implement the use of cradles.

• With just the 2012 Honda engine on the docket, Dallara currently plans to design the engine-to-chassis mounting interface based off the Honda. Although Honda’s V6 has a somewhat narrow V, Dallara expects any inline-4 engines to produce a mounting bracket that would branch out from the front of the motor to slide over the wider, V6-inspired studs attached to the back of the tub. Mounting points for the bottom of each engine should require much less material to adapt to the Honda-based chassis stud layout."
____________________________________________________________

That proofs the semi-stressed 4 cylinder GM Ecotec from my plan. Ashmore of BAT and Ilien said it wouldn't fly. Dallara is building for the identical architecture.

The rest of Pruett's massive article will sound pretty familiar too, although he got some good quotes from some optimistic people. I hope some of them are correct.

Full article:

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...ingle100271285

[climb]

Originally Posted by marcostraz

... I think there are many possible positive thing: for example, this choice could be interesting for some outisde the series to come in without having to spend a lot of money… I think about the connection between KV Racing Technology and Lotus Cars…...

Ehy, Tony Fernandes may have read your post!

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85280

[ptclaus98]

Man the arguements I used to have with that dude back when I didn't have a clue. I loved this part:

The Dallara tub hologram that was shown to everyone was NOT the 2012 tub. Dallara was given three days to come up with an animation that would demonstrate the 2012 concept, but members of the Dallara team seemed rather amused that they were rushed to produce a fake 2012 car on such short notice.

Good, because that one was uglier than what we have. Still a pretty good effort by the Dallara boys. That's some quick work.

[JagtechOhio]

Don't put that all on yourself claus, Pruett has blown some serious smoke in the past and is way too opinionated sometimes. Remember the Delta wing announcement? He spazzzzzzzed.

Most of this article is straight from the source. I hope.

[marcostraz]

I think that he Pruett's article is too pessimistic...

[marcostraz]

Originally Posted by climb

Ehy, Tony Fernandes may have read your post!

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85280

[icemachine]

I guess that Hulman & Co. perhaps with state tax grants must be footing this. Definitely a handout for anyone not called Penske

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85269
The jobs that will be created by the Italian firm's presence in the city has led to an agreement which will offer a $150,000 (£100,000) discount on the first 28 cars sold to teams based in the state of Indiana.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Flyin Ryan

Like I told you a few pages ago, Lola only wanted that because they got to keep all the money. They made 100% of everything, got to keep 100% of the money, and they threw a bone to fans with a couple different token car body designs. (which would become a spec over time because teams would learn via testing and practice which setup was the most slippery in the air and fastest).

Of course Lola want to keep any money they make and so do Dallara, Swift and BAT. How else to they recoup the R&D costs, which will be significant when producing a brand new vehicle? They aren't charitable institutions.

Originally Posted by Flyin Ryan

This system here, Lola can do the exact same thing with all their different body bits but this requires them to compete against other companies and be the best, which is what Indycar fans have been complaining about what's been missing from Indycar since God knows how long, and now the new plan seeks to resolve this and it's a bad thing to some people here?

Is it necessarily in Lola's, BAT's or Swift's interests to design and build add on aeros. Won't this ramp up their R&D costs? I would have thought it would.
Indy fans have been complaining about IndyCar because it became a featureless spec series and fans idealy would like to see multiple chassis and engines like CART.

Originally Posted by Flyin Ryan

In reality, the car represents all of the following ideals merged into one from the five proposals:
-the DeltaWing private ingenuity concept where it's open to anyone
-the common tub that all carmakers except DeltaWing had
-the Lola different bodies on offer so that the cars look different on the outside
-the reason for the DeltaWing 3-wheel design to stop wheel-to-wheel contract leading to have winglets around the wheel to hinder Conway wrecks from occurring

And in the first paragraph of this post you said, regarding Lola, "and they threw a bone to fans with a couple different token car body designs. (which would become a spec over time because teams would learn via testing and practice which setup was the most slippery in the air and fastest)".

That's exactly what can happen with the new Dallara/Honda.

[duke_toaster]

Originally Posted by climb

Ehy, Tony Fernandes may have read your post!

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85280

If they want to grow their presence on that side of the pond, what about Lotus Racing farming out Fairuz Fauzy to KV?