Overtaking, rules, boredom...who is at fault?

[ljakse]

In http://f1.racing-live.com/en/headlin...18133139.shtml Mansell says he's not even going to watch the race. Can you blame him?
We keep complaining about all kind of stuff in FIA's rules, and how they 'kill' overtaking, and the thrill. But, when you watch '92 GP Monaco, what you can see is Mansell trying everything to pass Senna.
Nowdays, we're happy if somebody overtakes at start/finish straight. Is it really all down to rules and regulations? Slick tyres and aerodinamics? Coulthard was driving behind Bernoldi for hours without attempting to pass. We see similar situations at every race - driver gets close to, but doesn't actually try to overtake the guy in front. When was the last time we've seen somebody constantly attacking the guy in front (besides Hakkinen at Spa in 2000). What we get is usually one try, possibly at the straight, and that's it. We never see a driver being 'all over' the guy in front. They just fake an atack or two, and hope for mistakes, without really putting the pressure. For me, beoing visible in mirrors is not pressure.

So, why not? Why don't today's drivers keep trying?

Note - none of this is applicable to Montoya, so don't give him as example

[Adam43]

Not trying is not the entire problem, or perception of the problem. However it doesn't help.

There are different kinds of not trying. Let's call them 'Michael not trying' and 'Ralf not trying'.

Ralf not trying is the easiest to see. There is just no trying at all.

Michael not trying is different. Take Imola and Barcelona, he didn't try because he knew he would just be able to destroy Button and Trulli on his in and out lap. That was the safer option. However we can remove this option and force Michael to have to try to overtake (which he can do very well!) - ban refueling.

[climb]

Overtaking difficulties at Monaco don't certainly depend on rules.
At Monaco overtaking is almost impossible, period.
Many threads have discussed this topic, but the race we going to see is really out of it.

[neilap]

In Barcelona it was expected that JB would pretty much slice his way through the field. The problem with that is how the cars make grip. There was only one realistic passing zone at the track but because the trailing car loses so much aerodynamic grip following into the last turn it made passing impossible. Even MS was not able to overhaul Trulli in a much slower car (in a straight line).

DC did try to pass Bernoldi, however he also had to use his brain. It take cooperation of both parties involved to execute a pass. Bernoldi was also driving pretty wide. At Monaco you are either on line or in the armco. I've seen many of the races of the 80's and early 90's (on tape) and there was not that much passing then either. Yeah, maybe a little more than now but not that much. Its the nature of openwheel racing.

[Glen]

Mansell doesn't say anything about slicks and aero - he mentions safety and the circuits, you just assume that he's talking about aerodynamic vs mechanical grip, which he isn't. As far as that problem goes though, it is only really very evident and tedious at places like Barcelona, which has a succession of quicker/longer corners where the problem is most obvious. There was plenty of overtaking in the Bahrain race, for example, but some folk have conveniently forgotten that because it doesn't fit in with their misconception.

To have a car constantly harrying the car in front you need the quicker car to be behind for some reason, which these days doesn't happen much because car performance is so consistent and so close to the limit for all of the race. In Mansell's day the cars were more fragile and the race was not run at 100% - what we saw then was a driver deciding to risk a charge at a critical moment in the race but today they are already going flat-out. Mansell conveniently forgets all this because to do so makes him looker better.

[Kirk]

Michael not trying is different. Take Imola and Barcelona, he didn't try because he knew he would just be able to destroy Button and Trulli on his in and out lap. That was the safer option. However we can remove this option and force Michael to have to try to overtake (which he can do very well!) - ban refueling. [/B]

No doubt about it, ban refueling is my # 1 preference. Add to that, slick tires using 1 manufacturer, no electronic driving aids and less aero, and we got ourselves the true PINNACLE of motor racing.

[Bononi]

I agree with all above, and what happens is that some drivers wouldn't want to do it every race. This year's race in Imola, RB was criticized for not trying to overtake in a circuit known as "hard to do it", while everybody praised him for last year Silverstone race.

[429CJ]

Or maybe 21st century drivers are just wimps?

[GP Racer]

The point system isn't helping either. There is little reason to try and make a pass, when the point difference between places is so small. You can win the championship these days without ever winning a race.

Stop rewarding "consistency", and start rewarding winning again...

[Kirk]

Originally posted by GP Racer
The point system isn't helping either. There is little reason to try and make a pass, when the point difference between places is so small. You can win the championship these days without ever winning a race.

Stop rewarding "consistency", and start rewarding winning again...

Good point. A NASCAR trick that doesn't work in F1.

[tally-bally-ho]

Ban refuelling and introduce strict controls on aero so they can't design it to deliberately mess up the following car.

Having the same tyres would make the overtaking more genuine (i.e. from the driver's skill). Montoya's pass of Michael last year (Nurburgring) was dramatic, but 99% down to his better tyres (1% allowed for "his have a go" mentality)!

[Adam43]

Originally posted by tally-bally-ho
Having the same tyres would make the overtaking more genuine (i.e. from the driver's skill).

They'd still have different engines, suspension, bodywork, gearbox, clutch, electronics. They could still have 'different' - maybe one is worn and one set new. If you make all cars identical then there would be very little overtaking! The majority of the overtaking in motor sport (and this is pretty much the case from any era) is down to car superiority (in that particular situation) - whether you be Montoya, Schumacher, Senna, Mansell, etc... It makes it no less deserved (certainly in the Nurburgring case you cite).

[Glen]

Just about the only way you could inject more overtaking is by shuffling the grid - no qualifying or somesuch. Or you could learn to appreciate that F1 is about more than overtaking, just like football is about more than goals. This constant moaning about overtaking (which DOES exist anyway) reminds me of the USA World Cup where it was considered to make the goalmouth wider so that more goals might occur and the uneducated TV audience wouldn't lose interest.

[DriverT]

Originally posted by Kirk
Good point. A NASCAR trick that doesn't work in F1.

It worked for Keke Rosberg.

[Adam43]

Glen is right. Although I would still make some rules changes to aid overtaking (well stated by me here and elsewhere). Whatever it wasn't ever that much different to know.

However one of the original points does still stand. Some drivers are more willing to and are better at overtaking.

[krt917]

Glen, people here (generally) aren't saying F1 is complete rubbish. We're just coming up with ways we think will make it better or more appealing to us. You have to admit that F1 is not perfect. It never will be, but the point is that some people have the opinion that certain things should be changed. Which is fine. You don't think things should be changed. That is also fine (and probably makes you far more contented at the moment too!), but you seem to be implying that we shouldn't even discuss it. Which, I believe, is not fine.

[krt917]

Originally posted by AdamAshmore
Michael not trying is different. Take Imola and Barcelona, he didn't try because he knew he would just be able to destroy Button and Trulli on his in and out lap. That was the safer option. However we can remove this option and force Michael to have to try to overtake (which he can do very well!) - ban refueling.

Originally posted by neilap
In Barcelona it was expected that JB would pretty much slice his way through the field. The problem with that is how the cars make grip. There was only one realistic passing zone at the track but because the trailing car loses so much aerodynamic grip following into the last turn it made passing impossible. Even MS was not able to overhaul Trulli in a much slower car (in a straight line).

Aerodynamics and fuel stops are the main culprits. I don't think the drivers are to blame, if it is so difficult and the risks so high.

Other aspects that don't help, as has already been mentioned, include the gizmos and points system.

Monaco, is a bit different though. It's a circuit completely unsuitable for F1, maybe even motor racing in general.

[Adam43]

Originally posted by krt917
[BMonaco, is a bit different though. It's a circuit completely unsuitable for F1, maybe even motor racing in general. [/B]

and in some ways this makes it so good. I wouldn't want a calendar of 18 Monacos though!

[krt917]

No, I wouldn't either. Sometimes I wish it wasn't on the calender, but other times.....

It's good from a 'testing the driver' point of view and does occassionally throw up the odd interesting race. Here's hoping against the odds this time!...

[Glen]

Oh no - discuss away, krt917. Things can always be improved. But you have to remmember a few things:

1. You need an objective in mind when you set about looking for changes. Abundant overtaking is not necessarily it - a one make series on control tyres with non-alterable set-ups would give you more overtaking, so would success ballast or swapping cars - these are all more non-F1 than a reduced incidence of overtaking... so you would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater as they say.

2. F1 has never contained as much overtaking as is suggested when these discussions take place.

3. It is possible to put so much time into whinging and moaning about how it aint like the good old days that you become determined not to enjoy the perfectly wonderful spectacle of F1 that is going on right now.

[ljakse]

Originally posted by Glen
2. F1 has never contained as much overtaking as is suggested when these discussions take place.

I must agree with that, but please, don't tell me it didn't contain much more trying.

[neil_davidson2]

Originally posted by neilap
It take cooperation of both parties involved to execute a pass.

I think this is also a good point, in order for overtaking to happen the drivers need to be confident that they're not going to lose their noses/front suspension if they do try it.

Things have become so critical in terms of winning (or staying ahead) these days that a driver will get slammed for not defending his position strongly enough if he doesn't shut the door hard on anyone taking a look up the inside.

Granted that doors have been slammed shut throughout the history of the sport but I feel that the lack of racing room these days is worse than ever.

After all - most of the tracks are wide enough to get three (or in some places four) cars wide.

[CamF1]

It's obvious, surely, that part, if not all, the problem is the clinging to the idea that every race we watch should be exciting to us in some way, this ideal that overtaking is the basis of a 'good' race. It's fantasy.

[Dutton]

I don't watch F1 to see overtaking. Don't get me wrong, I do love to see over-taking, but this isn't why I watch it. Never has been.

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Dutton
I don't watch F1 to see overtaking. Don't get me wrong, I do love to see over-taking, but this isn't why I watch it. Never has been.

OK, enough is enough. Auto racing is ALL ABOUT OVERTAKING , or at least the wheel to wheel racing in the attempt to do so. Anything less is ... well ... boring.