[Driver] Webber VS Vettel

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by mac

I think Red Bull would be quite happy... Clearly, they have THE BEST driver combination on the grid at the moment.

At least until Fernando arrives in Maranello...

OT: Are they replacing Massa

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Valve Bounce

...............your point being?

That his career would be "ended" quite incredibly despite having a competent season with some wins! Red Bull would be keen to get Raikkonen into the car and have two superstars, instead of an Aussie with very little promotional value in Europe.

It would presumably have lead to a Webber to Renault or Toyota (hopefully not Toro Rosso or Force India!) type scenario, with no interest from McLaren likely.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

It would presumably have lead to a Webber to Renault or Toyota (hopefully not Toro Rosso or Force India!) type scenario, with no interest from McLaren likely.

WOO WOO. The Webber to Renault alarm has been triggered. Can we get that in the autocensor?

I think Webber beats him on stubble, but that Vet would go for the beard.

[mac]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

And yet DM would have got Kubica or Raikkonen into the #4 RBR with no expense spared if they hadn't been so trigger happy by offering a tentative 1 year contract extension to Webbo already...

Umm, you know that how...? Are you on Mr Mateschitz's personal staff?

To be honest, I think Webber has had Raikkonen covered this year...

Kimi seems to be developing into a bit of an underachiever - despite the WDC in his pocket...

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by Valve Bounce

...............your point being?

Now that names a blast from the past! Hope ya doing well mate!

[jab]

Originally Posted by mac

Kimi seems to be developing into a bit of an underachiever - despite the WDC in his pocket...

Or overachiever, depending on which angle you're coming from

[mac]

Well... promised the world, spent his career in the best machinery...

Ultimately delivered comparatively little... apart from a single world championship which he should probably have won in a more convincing manner had the first half of his season been of a reasonable standard...

[Marbot]

You have a 'Oh,I can't be bothered!' season and you still end up winning the championship.That's pretty damn cool in my book.

[JeremySmith]

Is this thread about facial hair?

[Valve Bounce]

Originally Posted by Mr V

Now that names a blast from the past! Hope ya doing well mate!

I'm great; had an Amplatzer installed last year. Just posting here to take advantage of catching up with friends and chose this thread which has a great Aussi driver. Not going to dis Kimi (Love his driving) in a Mark Webber thread (Great driver). I can't think of a reply to V8 firework's post as it doesn't make any sense to me. :

[Knowlesy]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

I think Webber has proved to be a very good number two driver for Red Bull this year, he's picked up points for the team on a regular basis and taken a couple of wins when Vettel has had an off day. I suspect he'll do a similar job next season too (he's the Coulthard to Vettels Hakkinen).

I believe I proposed this pre-season (albeit without the comparison to Hakkinen/Coulthard which is very, very good) and was promptly labelled Absent WithOut Leave or that I had wings or something equally stupid!

[jab]

And so it finishes 15-2 in quali this year. Although there have been a couple where fuel-corrected Mark would've been faster, Seb has still been convincingly faster. This weekend he has been on top in pretty much every session so I'm expecting fuel loads to be pretty similar

Given that Mark isn't that slow, I'd say it's probably a combination of Mark struggling a little since his leg break and Seb being mind-blowingly fast. I'd now have him down as one of the fastest drivers (I'm talking 2 or 3) on the grid over 1 lap - only once, in Brazil, did Seb fail to make it into Q3

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by jab

This weekend he has been on top in pretty much every session so I'm expecting fuel loads to be pretty similar

Seb edge'd it by a tenth with 3 kilo's more fuel, so yep, pretty similar.

[Marbot]

Fuel adjusted (according to BBC):

2 Sebastian Vettel +0.496secs (lap 19)
3 Mark Webber +0.721 (lap 18)

[jab]

Yeah, that's about what I was expecting. Seb's on fire this weekend. He should get 2nd

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by jab

Seb's on fire this weekend. He should get 2nd

Unfortunately for Seb he's had too many 'shoulds' and not enough 'dids'.

[Dutton]

Yeah, Seb will kick himself with his early season mistakes. Without those, the WDC could well have happened. Still, that is the way she runs.

I think that maybe the difference between Vettel and Webber can be seen in that Vettel was a bit disappointing in some ways (especially in the early season), whereas Mark has done a fine job, but yet Vettel has outperformed Mark. It is all about expectations based on perceptions of potential. You just expect more from Vettel than Webber, since he is undoubtedly more talented.

Good on Webber, though: this year has proven he is a very decent driver, although I don't think that has ever been in realistic doubt. He has, IMO, silenced the logically flawed Webber-hating crowd who would try to make out he was pants. This year has clearly shown he is thoroughly decent, but not on that extra level which the likes of Vettel occupy.

Vettel made a couple more mistakes in the first half of the year than I thought he would, and I thought Webber would give him a tougher run in qualifying (I still figured Vettel to have the accepted advantage, but not at all 15-2 - I was figuring something like 11-6).

Basically, on the fundamental level, this season has panned out pretty well exactly how I thought it would.

[I can see the Mika-DC comparison, but I think the difference is the overall level is higher in this case: Vettel is better than Mika; Webber is better than DC.]

**********

I see Webber has a resounding lead in the beard poll. This is a sound result.

Webber has a more fitting facial bone structure for maximum beard exploitation I think. I would say the critical thing is he has a few years on Vettel, but that would be nullified should we go for an "age adjusted" ranking system.

[mac]

Originally Posted by Dutton

I think that maybe the difference between Vettel and Webber can be seen in that Vettel was a bit disappointing in some ways (especially in the early season), whereas Mark has done a fine job, but yet Vettel has outperformed Mark.

By and large I think most would agree with most of your analysis Dutton.

However, I do think Mark will be as equally disappointed as Seb...

After Hungary, Webber was well within the championship fight and looked like every bit the challenger his team mate was...

Then he:
- had a drive-through penalty for an unsafe release at Spa, costing him third or fourth.
- was taken out by Robert Kubica on the first lap at Monza, though Red Bull was not especially competitive anyway.
- crashed in practice in Singapore, before another penalty where he was forced behind two cars, before his brakes gave up.
- crashed in practice at Suzuka, ensuring he missed qualifying... destroying his weekend at a Red Bull circuit.

Both have reason to be disappointed for mistakes that cruelled their championship fights.

Yes, Vettel has been unbelievable in qualifying, but so what!?!? For the last seven years of Mark Webber's career, the broken record has been playing Qualifying Doesn't Matter ad nauseum.

As far as I'm concerned, both have been pretty much lineball all season. There have been weekends where Vettel has been untouchable - for anyone. But Webber has also shown that he is capable of such performances, just perhaps a little further apart.

Ultimately, both drivers were inconsistent - and it cost them. However, I think equally the car was not consistent enough to deliver either a championship.

Providing the car can be developed to have a larger sweet spot over the winter, it should stand everyone at Red Bull in good stead for a title fight next year... though I think McLaren are favourites at this stage.

So who do I think is the better driver? Ultimately it has to be Vettel - some of what he does is just mind-bottling (to borrow a Chaz Michaels term)... However, the gap to Webber IS outrageously small - despite what some say.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by mac

However, the gap to Webber IS outrageously small - despite what some say.

Though big enough for the team to be offering Seb a long term contract but only a one year for Mark and unfortunately for Mark, Seb is where Red Bull see their future.

[mac]

Originally Posted by Mr V

Though big enough for the team to be offering Seb a long term contract but only a one year for Mark and unfortunately for Mark, Seb is where Red Bull see their future.

Could also have something to do with the 10-year age gap...

Not many drivers get more than a year at a time in any good team when into their 30s - need to keep the old boys on their toes... it's the same in football...

[Satorian]

Originally Posted by Mr V

Though big enough for the team to be offering Seb a long term contract but only a one year for Mark and unfortunately for Mark, Seb is where Red Bull see their future.

And there is that while their results are nearly equal, Webber is considered to be in the best form of his life, while Vettel is seen to be at the start of his career and development. Who knows whether he can string up his performances next year the way he did this year. Personally, I think he will do as well next year, but I can see why team managers could be wary.

[EGG]

It'll be interesting to see how the RBR car stacks up next year, whether it will be better, worse on on par with this year (relative to other cars), and how vettel/webber will handle that.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by EGG

It'll be interesting to see how the RBR car stacks up next year, whether it will be better, worse on on par with this year (relative to other cars), and how vettel/webber will handle that.

Well yes....F1 will always be about the car.

Alonso is a good driver who says that this season he has driven as well as ever, but no amount of skill will see you winning a championship in an uncompetetive car.

Ferrari, Renault and McLaren have had their 'KERS distraction year off' now, so next season may not be quite so easy for the teams that 'made hay' this season.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by Mr V

Though big enough for the team to be offering Seb a long term contract but only a one year for Mark and unfortunately for Mark, Seb is where Red Bull see their future.

Originally Posted by mac

Could also have something to do with the 10-year age gap...

Indeed, it could, or it could have something to do with....

Originally Posted by Mr V

Seb edge'd it by a tenth with 3 kilo's more fuel, so yep, pretty similar.

Then went on to win by 17 seconds, dispite being on the same fuel stratergy!

Fwiw, i do really like Mark, i'm pleased for him with the season he's had, pole position, a couple of wins, but it's just his luck that when he finally gets (possibly) the best car on the grid he's teamed up with the guy who may well be the best driver in F1 (if not now, then definately in the future!).

[Mr V]

Just out of interest, why is he called Potsie? Never did understand that.