Brabham BT23

[Bryan Miller]

I have been to Goulburn , and returned with another Brabham.F2-8-65 , BT23B-1 according to David McKinney.Strange numbers on LHS. rear of frame.

[David Irwin]

To my knowledge BT23 were not built by Arch Motors, they were built by Racing Fabrications, thus the stamped number in the frame begins with 'RF'.

[allenbrown]

Is this the right place to ask about BT23C-11? Steve Mills has been in touch with me asking what became of her. He was with Cullen when the car was doing F2 events in 1970. For some reason, he can still rememebr the chassis number.

Anyone know?

Allen

[Chris Stanfield]

Originally Posted by allenbrown

Is this the right place to ask about BT23C-11? Steve Mills has been in touch with me asking what became of her. He was with Cullen when the car was doing F2 events in 1970. For some reason, he can still remember the chassis number.

Anyone know?

Allen

Back in the mid 70s ('74 or '75) I raced this car at Kirkistown (home of the 500 club) a couple of times. At that time it had a full race Kent engine (built by Holbay). That is to say, a full race 1.6 litre, but still the pushrod engine with about 170bhp (twin (45 DCOE?) Webers, dry sump, forged rods, pistons and crank, etc). The twin cam version, as used in Formula Atlantic at that time put out about 220 bhp, if I remember correctly. The car was actually owned by a car dealer called Noel Crymble. On my second outing (it was allowed to race in Clubmans "A", despite being rear engined) the engine self destructed and it wasn't completely rebuilt when the car went back to the owner. I think I still have a couple of pictures from then. It had a rear wing at the time.

I didn't score any points, so you can see how good I wasn't.

Chris

[David McKinney]

I have the 1990 owner as Mark Raymond (or Rayment) on this side of the Irish Sea

[Andrew Fellowes]

Originally Posted by David McKinney

I have the 1990 owner as Mark Raymond (or Rayment) on this side of the Irish Sea

BT23C-11
Mark Raymont, late 80's to 2003 with Holbay & Mk8

forgot to add now possibly in a museum in Europe

[Chris Townsend]

In January 1982 Autosport we have for sale by Northdown Racing of Ripley, Surrey, BT23C-2 [the ex Gethin/Don Godden car last seen for sale by Low Cost Racing in A/S in March 1973, and BT23-1, last seen being raced in Ireland by Maurice Stirling in 1973.

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by Chris Townsend

In January 1982 Autosport we have for sale by Northdown Racing of Ripley, Surrey, BT23C-2 [the ex Gethin/Don Godden car last seen for sale by Low Cost Racing in A/S in March 1973.

Originally Posted by Allen Brown

I've been working through this thread identifying BT23 Sprint Brabhams
The one I can't identify is:

Brabham-Ford BT23C (1.6) - Maurice Ogier once in 1972

The BT23C should fit into our histories but I haven't been able to connect it.

Allen

Just got off the phone with Maurice Ogier in the Channel Islands. The BT23C that he ran was the ex-Lythgoe car that Peter Gethin drove - chassis 2. Ogier bought the car less engine and fitted a Vegantune TC which he sourced from Tommy Elton. When he sold the car on at the end of 1972 it went to Low Cost Racing.

[allenbrown]

Originally Posted by Steve Wilkinson

Just got off the phone with Maurice Ogier in the Channel Islands. The BT23C that he ran was the ex-Lythgoe car that Peter Gethin drove - chassis 2. Ogier bought the car less engine and fitted a Vegantune TC which he sourced from Tommy Elton. When he sold the car on at the end of 1972 it went to Low Cost Racing.

Just spotted another event that Ogier took in: BARC SW Gurston Down 25 Jun 1972 (MN 29 Jun 1972 p26) - he was third in class behind Geoff Inglis (Brabham BT14/21 s/c) and Bruce Dean (Lola).

[Alan Brown]

Has this advert been noticed before?

Autosport 26 February 1970: “Chris Jackson wishes to dispose of his fabulous Brabham BT23C/21B. Jig built at Racing Frames, new body. This car was professionally built and maintained regardless of cost, is better than new and ready to race in top class F3 having been fully tested and sorted, but is unraced.” [Chippenham Wilts]

[Andrew Fellowes]

Originally Posted by Alan Brown

Has this advert been noticed before?

Autosport 26 February 1970: “Chris Jackson wishes to dispose of his fabulous Brabham BT23C/21B. Jig built at Racing Frames, new body. This car was professionally built and maintained regardless of cost, is better than new and ready to race in top class F3 having been fully tested and sorted, but is unraced.” [Chippenham Wilts]

Autoline Garage is no more, the only garage on Bath Road being a BP servo and there seems to be no C Jackson living close by.
Maintained regardless of cost and unraced is an interesting combination.

Andrew

[Andrew Fellowes]

Originally posted by Chris Townsend
and BT23-1, last seen being raced in Ireland by Maurice Stirling in 1973.

Chris

I bought BT23-1 from Jon Bradburn in late 84. He drove it a couple of times in HSCC events painted white, a colour he liked. Bradburn & Wedge were on the brink of collapse thanks to a massive loan from the bank to expand their business. -a time when the banks were throwing the stuff around. I see he has quite a few cars for sale these days!

[Chris Townsend]

Looking forward to the BT23s. I know that 23-8 [built with an Alfa engine for Galli] was still extant in Italy a year or two back.

Chris

[Andrew Fellowes]

OK, so who is going to start the BT23's? I know zilch apart from owning BT23-1 in 1985, ex Sir Jack, Tommy Reid and still in the UK, -?

[Chris Townsend]

ok Andrew, Bryan et al, shoot holes, add things to this!

BT23

1: Works car 1967 for Brabham. Sold to Tommy Reid and retained to 1970. Then Walter Kinnear. To Nelson Todd 1971. Maurice Stirling 1973.

2: Works car 1967 for Hulme and Gardner.1969 Picchio Rosso for Enzo Corti. 1970 Vittorio Brambilla

3: Works car 1967 for Gardner. 1968: Xavier Perrot. Destroyed in accident at Nurburgring? !969 by Perrot

4: Winkelmann 1967 for Rees. 1968 Walter Habbeger. 1969 Bruno Frey [this number sometimes ascribed to Corti's car which was given the wrong plate at a rebuild]

5: Winkelmann 1967 for Rindt and van Lennep. Taken by Hulme to 1968 Tasman and written off.

6: Witley Racing Syndicate 1967 for Robin Widdows. this car or chassis 9 to Canada 1968 for Dave Webster.

7: Mitter, 1967. to Norbert Linderman 1968, then Helmut Gall 1970, destroyed in accident

8: Nanni Galli 1967 with Alfa engine. 1968 Giorgio Pianta. 1969: Etienne Vigoureux as F3 car.

9: David Bridges for Brian Redman. This car or 6 to Canada in 1968.

23C

1: Works car 1967 for Brabham/Gardner. 1968: Frank Williams for Piko Troberg/Harry Stiller [as F3]/Piers Courage/Laurence Brownlie. 1969: Williams - Graham McRae/Alistair Walker. 1970: Walter Kinnear [described as ex Courage/Walker]

2: Lythgoe: Gethin 1968. 1969 Whitmore for Don Godden. For sale by Low Cost Racing 1.3.73.

3 Not known

4: Chris Lambert. ?Destroyed in Lambert's accident at Zandvoort 68

5: Winkelmann 1968 for Rindt. 1969: Ec. Ecosse: Graham Birrell
1973: Joe Applegarth

6: Max Moseley 1968. 1969: Peter Parnell [ZA]; 1970: Arnold Charlton

7: Williams 1968 for Courage. 1969: Roly Levis

8: 1968: Kurt Ahrens. 1969-70 Bernd Terbeck. 1977. Bill Morris

9: 1968: Church Farm Racing for Bell, 1968-9 Laurence Brownlie

10: 1968: Malcolm Payne. 1969 Garth McGilliwie [ZA] 1970 Tony Dean
1971: Rod Pickering. 1972: Bob Howlings. 1973: Bob Snelson

11: Winkelmann 1968 for Rees and Mitter. 1969: Bill Ivy, then to Brian Cullen after Ivy's bike crash. Kept by Cullen until end 71

12: Williams 1968 for Manfredini. 1969: Williams for Guthrie then sold to Bob Gerard for Widdows/Hart. 1970: Gerry Tyzack. 1971: Maybe Robin Darlington

13 Not built

14: Williams for Carlos Piaretti in Temporada

15: Eduardo Copello in Temporada

16: Williams for Juan Manuel Bordeu in Temporada. 1969: Williams for Courage and Ickx, then sold to Alistair Walker. 1970: Walker then sold to Gagliardi. 1971: Perhaps the Marcello Gallo BT23C running as F3 in 1971

17: Jorge Cuperio in Temporada. 1969: Perrot replacing w/o 23. 1970 Baron Robertson and 1971 then Kelvin Cameron . Have my doubts about the NZ thing

Chris

[allenbrown]

Originally Posted by Chris Townsend

BT23C

12: Williams 1968 for Manfredini. 1969: Williams for Guthrie then sold to Bob Gerard for Widdows/Hart. 1970: Gerry Tyzack. 1971: Maybe Robin Darlington

This Darlington business may have started here: Motoring News 3 Jun 1971 p19: Llandow libre report: "Robin Darlington turned up too late for scrutineering and was refused practice"; "His car on this occasion was a BT23-FVA, reputedly ex-Hart". So this could be BT23C-12, last seen late 1970, or BT23C-9 which vanished at the end of 1968.

Allen

[allenbrown]

I think the Baron Roberston/Kelvin Cameron BT23C was misread. Pretty sure it was BT23C/7, not 17.

Allen

[David McKinney]

I'll go through this when I get home
In the meantime:
Baron Robertson's first BT23C was #7, ex-Levis. This was badly damaged and Robertson imported a replacement car, which had a plate identifying it as #17 (though whether it was the ex-Cupeiro 17 I wouldn't like to say....) This was the car which passed on to Kelvin Cameron etc
The original car (7) was meanwhile straightened out by Robertson's mechanic, Phil Harris, and adapted for FF1600.
Both cars raced in NZ at the same time
I think this is the same Phil Harris who still races Brabhams in North American historics (or did a few years ago)

[David McKinney]

BT23
•Hulme, as you say, started the Tasman series with #5, which was written off at Pukekohe. His replacement car was No.4, and was described at the time as his 1967 works mount, which had been sold to an unnamed American (though listed by F1R and you as #2). The question is, did Scuderia Picchio-Rossi get the ex-Tasman car for Corti, or was the #2 they got (and called 4) another car?
The unnamed American got a car (number unknown) which had been shipped to Mike Champion in Australia
•I have the Mitter/Werner Lindermann etc car as 9 (though F1R says 7). I don’t have anyone for 7, but nor do I have a number for the Bridges/Redman car)

BT23C
•I have Howlings racing #1 in 1970. I wonder if the Kinnear reference (by others as well as you) is to BT23-1, not BT23C-1?
•I have #4 with Corti in 1969 (a possible confusion with BT23/4 - or BT23/2!)
•I have the South African cars the other way around (6 with McGillwie 1969, then Arnold Charlton, and 10 with Parnell then returning to the UK)
•7 came back to the UK in the late 1980s. The NZ 17 (whatever it really was) was destroyed by fire about 1978
•Brownlie certainly never had BT23C/9 (except perhaps on paper)
•I have Tyack using #12 in hillclimbs in 1971 as well as 1970

[Bryan Miller]

I will have to have a few goes at this.

BT23's 1st.

BT23-1 , M.R.D. RF5 , FVA 7021, Jack Brabham 1967.
1968 , Irish Racing Cars , Tommy Reid with a Ford Twin -cam.
1969, as above Tommy Reid.
1970, as above , but now with FVA.

BT23-2,RF6, FVA 7012, M.R.D. Hulme , then apparently to Walter Habegger , but then borrowed/rented back by Hulme to finish the Tasman with after his big accident in BT23-5 in early 1968, thence back to Europe to Scuderia Piicchio Rosso [ Enzo Corti ] carries chassis number 23-4 scratched on chassis .
1969 Enzo Corti .
1970 Vittorio Brambilla.

BT23-3, M.R.D. RF8 FVA 7003 , Gardner 1967.
1968 , Xavier Perrot.
1969, Perrot written off in non F2 race.

BT23-4, Winkleman/Rees FVA 7008 .
1968 Walter Habegger Racing.
1969, Bruno Frey.

BT23-5, Winkleman / Rindt, 1967
1968 , Hulme in Tasman untill serious accident, then rented / borrowed BT23-2,
Damaged BT23-5 sold to Feo Stanton in N.Z. and sent to Bob Brittan / Rennmax in Australia for rebuild, typically Bob made a jig [ subsequently used for Mildren / Rennmax BN3 / etc. cars and sent a new car known as the Rorstan Porsche bach to N.Z. containing all the usable BT23-5 bits , this car used by Brian Fallon until his Fatal accident .
Meanwhile back in OZ , Bob Rebuilt the original frame as a project for Warren Leach as a Formula Ford , using Rennmax uprights etc, the car was repossed by Bob Brittan for , I believe non payment , and the car then sold to Graham Hepburn of Talbingo N.S.W. it then ended up with Denis Lupton of Melbourne circa 1981.
Meanwhile back in N.Z. the Falloon car with its apparently rare 4 cam eng still remaining somehow found its way to Melbourne Porsche Distributor Alan Hamilton who had acquired the car for the eng.and gearbox for a restoration .
The remains , i.e. rolling chassis then went to Les Sargent , then to Denis Lupton , who now had both collections of bits , a chinese deal evolved [ these dealings famous in OZ ] and George Goodare of Sydney swapped a BT15 to Lupton for the collection of BT23-5 in December 1983, where upon a major rebuild commenced and the car is still in the hands of George Goodare, after having compainged the car for many years complete with correct FVA / FT200 etc, and having recast new uprights etc. The car has not been used for some time now.

BT23-6 , Robbin Widdows .1967 , end 67 sold to Mitsubishi Motors .
I see a car advising this chassis number for sale in the U.S.A now.


Bryan.

[Terry S]

Originally Posted by Bryan Miller

I will have to have a few goes at this.

BT23's 1st.

BT23-1 , M.R.D. RF5 , FVA 7021, Jack Brabham 1967.
1968 , Irish Racing Cars , Tommy Reid with a Ford Twin -cam.
1969, as above Tommy Reid.
1970, as above , but now with FVA.

BT23-2,RF6, FVA 7012, M.R.D. Hulme , then apparently to Walter Habegger , but then borrowed/rented back by Hulme to finish the Tasman with after his big accident in BT23-5 in early 1968, thence back to Europe to Scuderia Piicchio Rosso [ Enzo Corti ] carries chassis number 23-4 scratched on chassis .
1969 Enzo Corti .
1970 Vittorio Brambilla.

BT23-3, M.R.D. RF8 FVA 7003 , Gardner 1967.
1968 , Xavier Perrot.
1969, Perrot written off in non F2 race.

BT23-4, Winkleman/Rees FVA 7008 .
1968 Walter Habegger Racing.
1969, Bruno Frey.

BT23-5, Winkleman / Rindt, 1967
1968 , Hulme in Tasman untill serious accident, then rented / borrowed BT23-2,
Damaged BT23-5 sold to Feo Stanton in N.Z. and sent to Bob Brittan / Rennmax in Australia for rebuild, typically Bob made a jig [ subsequently used for Mildren / Rennmax BN3 / etc. cars and sent a new car known as the Rorstan Porsche bach to N.Z. containing all the usable BT23-5 bits , this car used by Brian Fallon until his Fatal accident .
Meanwhile back in OZ , Bob Rebuilt the original frame as a project for Warren Leach as a Formula Ford , using Rennmax uprights etc, the car was repossed by Bob Brittan for , I believe non payment , and the car then sold to Graham Hepburn of Talbingo N.S.W. it then ended up with Denis Lupton of Melbourne circa 1981.
Meanwhile back in N.Z. the Falloon car with its apparently rare 4 cam eng still remaining somehow found its way to Melbourne Porsche Distributor Alan Hamilton who had acquired the car for the eng.and gearbox for a restoration .
The remains , i.e. rolling chassis then went to Les Sargent , then to Denis Lupton , who now had both collections of bits , a chinese deal evolved [ these dealings famous in OZ ] and George Goodare of Sydney swapped a BT15 to Lupton for the collection of BT23-5 in December 1983, where upon a major rebuild commenced and the car is still in the hands of George Goodare, after having compainged the car for many years complete with correct FVA / FT200 etc, and having recast new uprights etc. The car has not been used for some time now.

BT23-6 , Robbin Widdows .1967 , end 67 sold to Mitsubishi Motors .
I see a car advising this chassis number for sale in the U.S.A now.


Bryan.

Does anyone know if BT23-5 is still owned by George Goodare, or has it been sold to Eueope?

Saw the attached http://www.salzburg.com/nachrichten/...elpiste-74531/

Unfortunately can't read German.

Is this the real thing or a replica?

[Bryan Miller]

George Goodare sold car a few years ago to Austria I believe , so probably the car at the museum.

[allenbrown]

Originally Posted by Terry S

Does anyone know if BT23-5 is still owned by George Goodare, or has it been sold to Eueope?

Saw the attached http://www.salzburg.com/nachrichten/...elpiste-74531/

Unfortunately can't read German.

Is this the real thing or a replica?

It moved some years ago:
http://www.oldracingcars.com/brabham/bt23/

[allenbrown]

I don't know whether Muller still owns it, but here it is at Essen last month:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/ton306/17264073071/

[titan6]

Originally Posted by allenbrown

I don't know whether Muller still owns it, but here it is at Essen last month:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/ton306/17264073071/

Hi: In photos in the period of the 1000cc F3 era, there are photos of cars w/ front wings that exceed the 95cm body width allowed by the rules.

How is this possible?