Brabham BT23

[Andrew Fellowes]

June 15th Hockenhein, BT23, Manfred Mohr d.n.a.

interesting, anyone know which one please?

[Andrew Fellowes]

Now as for Perrot, Autosport had an interesting last paragraph on the F2 race on the 27th April.

I thought the BT23C was a replacement because the BT23 had been written off. My error.

Perrot crashed but not badly, however a wayward Porsche 911 ended up on top of the Brabham (why hadn't they moved it?) and thats when major damage was done.
Perrot simply shrugged his shoulders and said he would have to use the BT23C that he had bought.

Andrew

[Andrew Fellowes]

I am adding this here as it may be something to do with BT23-3 -on the other hand it could be something else entirely!

Sport Auto No.122 March 72

Vds Brabham F2 ex Siffert, Px int. Tel. 29.12.29 ou 29.13.21

[Andrew Fellowes]

BT23-6 RF10-01 FVA 7027
1967 Whitley Racing Services for Robin Widdows
Crashed by Widdows and sold less engine & gearbox to Dr Ehrlich.
1968-71 Dr Ehrlich rebuilt by Frank Coltman for F3
1971-74 G.Hyatt
1974-77 R. Strange for hill climbs
1977-84 D. McLaughlin
1984-88 P. Coleman accident 1988 and sold to
1989-93 Chris Holland repaired the car with Mclaren M4A front suspension. Damaged again in 1989 at Donington
1993-97 Jay Galpin frame sent to Simon Hadfield who replaced all four corners and uprights, new body and seat and correct instruments. Missing plumbing, wiring, fuel tank, radiator, oil tank, half shafts, seatbelts and mirrors.
1997-00 Barry Marquardt
2000-05 Bob Baker
2006- David Jacobs

Details in red are from a letter to Barry Marquart from Jay & Beverley Galpin in which he also refers to Ron Strange. He goes on to add that this car was very successful in HSCC events in Europe.
Sorry Jay but I dont think I agree with you other point that '9 BT23s were made and only 13 BT23Cs but several more were made as spares so that they could be available as replacements because entrant rules were such that car tags were moved in the night.

Andrew

[allenbrown]

I found that reference to Ribager's "BT30" so thought I'd add it in.

BT23-3 RF8 FVA 7003
1967 Frank Gardner
1968 Xavier Perrot, Günther Huber
1969 Badly damaged by Perrot at Nürburgring 27th April
1969 Jo Siffert sold to
1970-75 Jacques Joliat, CH. 1971 replaced FVA with FVC
1975-6 Michel Salvi, CH
1979 Alain Ribager has ex-Salvi "BT30" nr Mulhouse
1984 Gérard Gamand found nr Valance, France (500k from Mulhouse) with Renault engine
1989 Michel Champelovier
sold to Hollinger
2006 Thierry De Mortier

It's a bit difficult to nail down exactly when the car moves from Salvi to Ribager. In early 1977, Ribager has a 1300cc Brabham but Salvi also has a Brabham, given as a BT36-FVA. I would guess that Ribager has the BT23 from 1977 onwards but it's always possible that Salvi rebuilt and updated his BT21 and sold that to Ribager instead.

Allen

[Andrew Fellowes]

BT23C-6, Arnold Charlton reported at the Highveld 100 in January 1971, so maybe it didn't return to England in 1970.

Andrew

[allenbrown]

Reported by who? He's not mentioned in any report I've ever seen.

[Andrew Fellowes]

Hieronymus, (but not sure from where). He is very kindly going to try and ask Arnold Charlton -if he can find him.

Also;
At the Bulawayo 100 in Rhodesia he entered for the race, but reports mentions that the car was still "not completed". After that race, no more mention whatsoever in local race reports.

Completed after what I wonder? Too easy to assume blown FVA, but that's just guessing of course.

[Andrew Fellowes]

Originally Posted by IANHEB

With regard to BT23C-6 (or possibly-10),Arnold Charlton recently confirmed that his car was sold back to the UK in late 1970 after the FVA engine had blown up after a recent re build and he lost patience with it.Sorry can't add any more than that.
Ian

Couldn't remember where 1970 came from. Perhaps '71?

Andrew

[Andrew Fellowes]

Originally Posted by Andrew Fellowes

Couldn't remember where 1970 came from. Perhaps '71?

review of information supplied 1970 it is, Sorry, screw up on my part.

[Andrew Fellowes]

A/S August 20th 1970 p.53
BT23C, immaculate, rebuilt, with or without FVA...would consider Mk8 U2 in px
Charlton,
16 Pasteur Chambers
191 Jeppe St, Johnannesburg

So who bought it and took it back to the UK, by then an out of date car that then vanished without a whimper. Turned into something else perhaps?

Andrew

[Andrew Fellowes]

Still on BT23-6 The names of Hyatt & Strange mean nothing to any of the UK owners post 1977 who all have been kind enough to reply to my questions.
Special thanks to Peter and Arlette Coleman, lovely to talk to you again after so many years.

Andrew

[Ted Walker]

23c-10 is in the UK.Never went to South Africa.

[Andrew Fellowes]

Ted I've just sent you a photo of Peter Parnell's two cars in 1969, can't post here 'cause it's copyright. I thought they were BT23C-6 & 10.


Andrew

[allenbrown]

Originally Posted by Ted Walker

23c-10 is in the UK.Never went to South Africa.

Are you sure Ted? Its brief journey to South Africa and back is well-documented in period. It was Malcom Payne's car in 1968, flew south for a season with Garth McGillewie and Team Parnell then returns in September 1969 where Motoring News (25 Sep 1969 p8) says that Tony Dean had his "latest acquisition, the ex-Malcolm Payne/Garth McGillewie F2 Brabham-FVA BT23C which Tony had picked up from South Africa".

It then went via Bob Howlings (mid-1970) to Rod Pickering and then back via Howlings to Bob Snelson in 1973. We don't know how it got from Snelson to its current owner - can you help?

Allen

[Ted Walker]

Allen. Sorry 23c-6 stayed in SA .10 came back .I thought you meant that they both stayed there . The photo in question.I think shows Parnells 23c and his "ex willment BT10 "?????????????????????????????

[allenbrown]

The car in the picture is the FMG isn't it? Locally built thing that didn't pretend to be a Brabham even if it was very Brabham-ish.

According to stories further up this thread, both BT23Cs came back. The puzzle is what happened to BT23C-6 as it then disappears.

[Andrew Fellowes]

I will see if I can get permission to post the photo as this must be a bit annoying for everyone else.

Hieronymus suggests that the three cars are as follows;
One for Parnell, one for John Amm and the other for Fred Goddard. The latter being the FMG, Fred's first car he built.

I'm out of my depth again, how unusual.
Andrew

[allenbrown]

Here's a strange thing.

Autosport 9 Jul 1970 has a feature on Frank Gardner and it mentions that there was a Brabham BT23C in the workshop, "a special works car on which Garnder has tested some tweaks for Brabham". The visit may have been late March 1970 but could have been as late as the end of June. Either date makes the presence of a "works" BT23C baffling. The article was written by Kettlewell so he won't have made a mistake on that.

Allen

[allenbrown]

Amazing the things you spot when you're looking for something else. (I'd looked up ths issue of AS as it had a feature on Gardner and I'm doing a page on the Franklen.).

On page 4 is a mini-report on the Soissons hill climb which says that "second car was Swiss Kurt Buess in his recently acquired F2 Brabham-FVA BT23C" (ie BT23C-17) and right next to it a mention of "Northerner Stanley Robinson" who has a 1968 series FVA 'which he got when he bought the remains of the Ecurie Ecoss Brabham BT23C [BT23C-5] which Graham Birrell crashed very heavily as Ingliston a couple of months back. The very twisted chassis has been put aside ("for the time being")'.

[Andrew Fellowes]

A small update that may explain why BT23C-6 vanished so easily. It went to a UK dealer in px for a FF. The FF then had the chassis plate from the 23 put on it so it could enter South Africa duty free. Arnold Charlton sold the FF on arrival and the new owner wrote it off first time out.

That leaves one BT23C, ex Parnell, sans chassis plate, in 1970 back in the UK with a racing car dealer.
WHO?

It should have evidence of considerable repair (by Doug Serrurier) after Arnold had rolled 5 times at Roy Hesketh in Pietermaritzburg and put it through 2 barbed wire fences!

[allenbrown]

Maybe we can trace it via the FF? It might appear in adverts just before it was exchanged for the BT23C and that would tell us who the dealer was. What was it?

[Andrew Fellowes]

OK, the odds are it was still in South Africa when the ad was placed in August.

so I shipped the car off to England to a used-racing-car dealer (can not recall the name).
After some months I arranged to accept a Formula Ford in exchange.

Arnold Charlton

So a good starting point will be to look between September 1970
and about March 1971.

[allenbrown]

Can he remember the manufacturer and model? Just "a Formula Ford" isn't much to go on. I think there were several of them over here in 1970!

[Andrew Fellowes]

I've done a search on this thread and cant find mention of this which I came across while looking for unknown BT23s in ads,

A/S Jan 22nd p.42 BT23C FVA rebuilt Alan Mann Racing £4,750 spare FVA available.

I guess we all have a list of unknowns and one day it might be nice to collate them. I have a list of known phone numbers in case I can cross ref one, but to be any good such a list would have to be very much bigger than what I have done so far.