Big hit at the island??

[BFC]

Originally Posted by 275 GTB-4

Does anyone know if any Flag Point requested a lack of adhesion flag?? It is normal for other points to interject where necessary...however, if you have undisciplined chatter, these time-critical calls can sometimes be lost

Once upon a time Flaggies were able to think for themselves and show the appropriate flag but with all this bullsh%te with F1 and RC telling them what to do no one is confident anymore. As soon as they stop all this crap of RC telling flaggies to "wave the blue for" or wave the oil flag vigorously to tell drivers it is raining the better off motorsport will be, so dont go blaming the poor freezing flaggies for not doing the right thing because most are **** scared of getting casstigated by the DH's in RC for doing the RIGHT thing

[cavvy]

Originally Posted by 275 GTB-4

I think that should read "is VIC acceptable"....I have seen first hand some odd decisions and cock-ups made by Car Club officials running VIC meetings.

Anyone running meetings should have hard earned bona-vides...I agree with the comments about fluent Flaggie as well...

Does anyone know if any Flag Point requested a lack of adhesion flag?? It is normal for other points to interject where necessary...however, if you have undisciplined chatter, these time-critical calls can sometimes be lost

GTB, to widen the scope would only delay action at Phillip Island, where there have been incidents that should spark an inquiry.
I can only hope Dave has some success getting action.

[PVDA]

Originally Posted by 275 GTB-4

I have seen first hand some odd decisions and cock-ups made by Car Club officials running VIC meetings.

I tend to agree with you GTB.

Some events are run by people who only run one or two events per year (not the recent PI one though) and it shows. Trouble is they believe they are doing well because they are looking at their own little world and not standing outside looking inwards like the rest of us.

I've reduced the number of events I work at from nearly everything in past years to being selective mainly due to the sheer cost of going to everything but I have to say my stress levels have reduced somewhat by choosing not to go to some of the smaller state level events where event command is left wanting.

[Mr_Cool]

Originally Posted by fomoco

One of the problems with most Aust tracks is that the Flag Points do not always have a line of sight between each other and Race control has to send a sector or a member from a flag point to check and confirm if there is a foreign substance on the racing line or track.

Normally if you suspect there is oil you put the flag out as a pre-cautional measure, seeing as they appear to have 1 per point, I can only imagine that they were trying to tell race control and frantically waving the yellow flag to get the appropriate flag out to warn of the "oil" on circuit.

It is hard to wave the yellow and also tell race control the position of the stranded car whilst trying to get out a second flag, it's hard to wave a flag whilst holding a stationary.

[MPA]

Originally Posted by Mr_Cool

Normally if you suspect there is oil you put the flag out as a precautionary measure.

Yes, that's a good idea.

If in doubt hang it out. If there's no oil on the track you'll soon work it out and pull the flag back in....I recon it's OK to be safe and look like a bit of a quickdraw.

Can some of the drivers in here add comment about oil flags being out for a tiny patch of coolant, stones, grass, mud etc or because we wrongly suspect there's a problem..

[aussiefveeracer]

MPA depends where the flag is displayed. At turn 1 at PI I'd treat it with the same respect as the yellow, which might bite my in the bum if I get passed and it turned out to be nothing. At a place like Honda, I'd probably try my luck but knowing to be ready to catch the car and extra alert.

No harm I say.

[fomoco]

Originally Posted by Mr_Cool

Normally if you suspect there is oil you put the flag out as a pre-cautional measure, seeing as they appear to have 1 per point, I can only imagine that they were trying to tell race control and frantically waving the yellow flag to get the appropriate flag out to warn of the "oil" on circuit.

It is hard to wave the yellow and also tell race control the position of the stranded car whilst trying to get out a second flag, it's hard to wave a flag whilst holding a stationary.

I think you missed something there, look at most tracks were the flag points are. Go and stand in one and send a freind to the previous point and the next one.If you can see 100 % of the track and the flag point preceding and forward of you then you are halfway there. Yes it is hard waving a yellow, a green and with the head set on, (done this to many times to remeber). and to monitor the track and the flag points either side of me. My point again, not all tracks have flag points that can see each other. there in lies a problem in communicating to the drivers. Also, agree with other posts, if doubt put it out. but expect a *******ing from RC.

[Mr_Cool]

Originally Posted by fomoco

I think you missed something there, look at most tracks were the flag points are. Go and stand in one and send a freind to the previous point and the next one.If you can see 100 % of the track and the flag point preceding and forward of you then you are halfway there. Yes it is hard waving a yellow, a green and with the head set on, (done this to many times to remeber). and to monitor the track and the flag points either side of me. My point again, not all tracks have flag points that can see each other. there in lies a problem in communicating to the drivers. Also, agree with other posts, if doubt put it out. but expect a *******ing from RC.

If you start a meeting without line of sight then the stewards/chief haven't done their job.

When I work at state meetings i have no issues with putting flags (besides the red) out under my own discretion which is what they should be teaching, i have never gotten a lashing for putting a flag out, i think the problem is they don't have cameras to see it for themselves. Many times they ask you a load of questions so they can visualise where the car is which extends the time it takes to make a decision.

[inpitlane]

Originally Posted by cavvy

So is PI acceptable or should something done?

If this was a one off then you'd probably examine it and leave it at that but as has been pointed out this sort of thing has happened at the Island before. Remember a Victoria State or Island magic meeting a year or three back when Marshall's were ducking Formula Fords at T1 despite calls from the point to red flag. One flaggie after the race was so furious that his life was put in such risk he had to be restrained from going up and flattening someone.
After the race the CofC said he did not call the red because of "inappropriate and unofficial language." BTW who was CofC last weekend?

[Rachel Richards]

Originally Posted by Mr_Cool

If you start a meeting without line of sight then the stewards/chief haven't done their job.

When I work at state meetings i have no issues with putting flags (besides the red) out under my own discretion which is what they should be teaching, i have never gotten a lashing for putting a flag out, i think the problem is they don't have cameras to see it for themselves. Many times they ask you a load of questions so they can visualise where the car is which extends the time it takes to make a decision.

I was discussing this last night with some friends of mine who have worked both track-side and in Race Control, and here is a typical scenario that should be how every incident should be handled:


"Flag-point X to Race control, we have a car spun, and is sitting on track edge drivers left"

" Race control to flag-point X, is the car in a dangerous position?"

" Flag-point X to race control yes it is in a dangerous position"

"Race control to all points, all points Red Flag, Red Flag Red Flag"


No nice in a perfect world BUT:

The problems are twofold: the quality of info FROM some communications points, AND the ability of those in Race Control to a) interpret this info, and b)their confidence in those on the ground. (translated: to not being on a power trip)

As has been mentioned, the once or twice a year C of C's are the worst offenders at this, because they simply don't have the experience in dealing with these incidents.

Make no mistake, from what I have seen; a Race Control is a stressful place at times, and yet a crew that know each other, are experienced, and importantly work well together, do make it look easy, even when incidents are going on all around them.

Just because, as a car club member you have done comms or been an assistant C of C each yearly meeting for the last 10 years doesn't mean you are competent.

The flaggie or firie or recovery guy/girl who has done 5 years, but attended 12 or more events each year does actually have a better handle on the situation. They do need to be listened to, and importantly, they can be trusted.

For all of the time spent, and money invested in the CAMS officials licencing/training program, over more than 12 years, it seems that the people on the ground are being trusted less and less.

[Mr_Cool]

Doesn't help that when the V8s come to town they have that many cameras they can see when and what direction you sneeze.

[MPA]

Originally Posted by inpitlane

If this was a one off then you'd probably examine it and leave it at that but as has been pointed out this sort of thing has happened at the Island before. Remember a Victoria State or Island magic meeting a year or three back when Marshall's were ducking Formula Fords at T1 despite calls from the point to red flag. One flaggie after the race was so furious that his life was put in such risk he had to be restrained from going up and flattening someone.
After the race the CofC said he did not call the red because of "inappropriate and unofficial language." BTW who was CofC last weekend?

Yer joking? Someone got a bit potty mouthed on the loop and the CoC spat it and left the F/Ford beached trackside for the field to hit on the next lap?

No, I have a hard time believing that.

[Dasher]

Originally Posted by inpitlane

If this was a one off then you'd probably examine it and leave it at that but as has been pointed out this sort of thing has happened at the Island before. Remember a Victoria State or Island magic meeting a year or three back when Marshall's were ducking Formula Fords at T1 despite calls from the point to red flag. One flaggie after the race was so furious that his life was put in such risk he had to be restrained from going up and flattening someone.
After the race the CofC said he did not call the red because of "inappropriate and unofficial language." BTW who was CofC last weekend?

Quite correct IPL, it was Island Magic in 2006, cars were going everywhere and no red flag was called with cars stranded in the middle of turn one.

Because no red was called the cars came around on the next lap and had nowhere to go, it was absolute carnage, it was very very lucky that no one was killed.

Funnily though it all got hushed up.

I know this because my son was involved in the mayhem & damage that resulted from this pompous idiot in RC thinking that he was bigger than God and wouldn't or couldn't make a decision when he had a clear veiw from the tower.

[inpitlane]

Originally Posted by Dasher

Quite correct IPL, it was Island Magic in 2006, cars were going everywhere and no red flag was called with cars stranded in the middle of turn one.

Because no red was called the cars came around on the next lap and had nowhere to go, it was absolute carnage, it was very very lucky that no one was killed.

Funnily though it all got hushed up.

I know this because my son was involved in the mayhem & damage that resulted from this pompous idiot in RC thinking that he was bigger than God and wouldn't or couldn't make a decision when he had a clear veiw from the tower.

If I recall correctly it was raised at CAMS State Board level, somewhere in the many boxes of tapes we have the footage. I remember Cade Southall was one of the cars that was off but there were a few caught out and yes it was very lucky no one was hurt or worse.

[1200Datto27]

This is why I no longer have any officials licences, and do not do any trackside work.

[275 GTB-4]

Originally Posted by 1200Datto27

This is why I no longer have any officials licences, and do not do any trackside work.

Whilst you may be critical of the way SOME meetings are run...as am I...they will never improve, but get worse, if experienced people (with the nouce) continue to walk away...

I have some Race Control experience....happy to head south on fuel vouchers

[1200Datto27]

Quite simply, I was sick and tired of being told to do things in a dangerous manner, or being overruled by people who shouldn't have been in the position that there where in, other than for the club that they where members of. If the old school that runs cams in Vic goes, then I'll consider making a return.

[275 GTB-4]

Originally Posted by 1200Datto27

Quite simply, I was sick and tired of being told to do things in a dangerous manner, or being overruled by people who shouldn't have been in the position that there where in, other than for the club that they where members of. If the old school that runs cams in Vic goes, then I'll consider making a return.

Well continue to monitor the sit-a-u-ation....the other night, I went along to a quite encouraging, upbeat and common sense talk by NSW officials who outlined a "new deal" for clubs, competitors and to a certain extent, officials.

One new initiative is the appointment of regional officers so that people who in the past have felt isolated from the organisation will now have a local bloke to work through local issues and/or have a voice upstream.

[fomoco]

I SAID IT BEFORE AND I WILL SAY IT AGAIN, UNTIL ALL VOLUNTEER MARSHALLS, TRACKSIDE AND RACE CONTROL COME UNDER ONE UNITED BODY BASED ON THE SES MODULE , WE WILL LOOSE QAULITY PEOPLE FROM ALL SIDES.

INSTEAD OF SHARING THE WORK LOAD, THERE SEEMS TO BE A SIMILAR POINT OF THE SAME PEOPLE DOING THE SAME JOB OVER A NUMBER OF YEARS WITHOUT ROTATING BACK THRU THE ROLES OF ALL MARSHALLS AND ASSOCIATED RACE MANAGEMENT.

I KNOW CAMS RUNS COURSES BUT AS, MARSHALLS AND OFFICIALS, WE DO NOT HAVE A SEPERATE BODY TO GOVERN, TAKE GREVIANCES TO, AND SET STANDARDS THAT MUST BE AHERED TO.

I HAVE NOTICED OVER THE PAST EIGHT YEARS THE NUMBERS DROP IN MY NECK OF THE WOODS, WITH THE ALL TO FAMILIAR COMPLAINTS.

TO AVOID INCIDENTS LIKE THIS, WE AS MARSHALLS, IN AUSTRALIA HAVE TO START THE BALL ROLLING. OTHERWISE WE WILL LOOSE MORE EXPERIENCED PEOPLE AND THAT CAN ONLY BE A BAD THING FOR MOTOSPORT.

I WILL POINT OUT THAT THE AFL WENT THRU THE SAME THING YEARS AGO, WHY ARE PEOPLE NOT FOLLOWING AFL. THEY SAT DOWN AND REWORKED A FEW THINGS AND PICKED THEMSELVES UP.

SO, WHY AREN'T WE DOING IT.??? WE ALL COMMENT ON IT , YET IT DOESN'T GET PAST FIRST BASE. ARE THERE A FEW EGO'S THAT MAY GET BRUISED?

AS AN OLD BOSS OF MINE SAID, IF WE LOOSE A FEW ON THE WAY , SO BE IT, BUT WE WILL GET TO WHERE WE WANT TO BE.

[275 GTB-4]

You may well be right...however...if you can get the disparate groups and individuals organised around Australia or even to speak with one voice or allow someone to speak on their behalf...good luck!

My suggestion is to lobby CAMS to help set up a Marshals/Officials association or group as a way of fostering their development, advertise officialing and training opportunities, provide a common set of standard operating procedures for the running of a meetings (including some aspects poorly adressed at the moment such as assessments) and to engender a sense of pride in being part of a nationally recognised group for officials.

A CAMS Officials Board Member is probably too much to expect but a representative to voice officials concerns, suggestions etc might be achievable.

[BFC]

Gee i wouldnt mind flagging one meeting and then get the chance to drive the course car the next meeting (sharing the workload as FOMOCO suggests) there is 2 chances of that happening and Buckley has gone home!!! ...Dont live in a dreamworld FOMOCO sharing the workload will never happen as long as u have the BOYS CLUB from the South Island running things

[Denosaur]

Originally Posted by BFC

Gee i wouldnt mind flagging one meeting and then get the chance to drive the course car the next meeting (sharing the workload as FOMOCO suggests) there is 2 chances of that happening and Buckley has gone home!!! ...Dont live in a dreamworld FOMOCO sharing the workload will never happen as long as u have the BOYS CLUB from the South Island running things

Agreed!!! And probably the only way of getting them out would be a severe dose of lead poisoning between the eye's, as they say.

[ff s conscience]

Originally Posted by fomoco

I SAID IT BEFORE AND I WILL SAY IT AGAIN, UNTIL ALL VOLUNTEER MARSHALLS, TRACKSIDE AND RACE CONTROL COME UNDER ONE UNITED BODY BASED ON THE SES MODULE , WE WILL LOOSE QAULITY PEOPLE FROM ALL SIDES.

INSTEAD OF SHARING THE WORK LOAD, THERE SEEMS TO BE A SIMILAR POINT OF THE SAME PEOPLE DOING THE SAME JOB OVER A NUMBER OF YEARS WITHOUT ROTATING BACK THRU THE ROLES OF ALL MARSHALLS AND ASSOCIATED RACE MANAGEMENT.

I KNOW CAMS RUNS COURSES BUT AS, MARSHALLS AND OFFICIALS, WE DO NOT HAVE A SEPERATE BODY TO GOVERN, TAKE GREVIANCES TO, AND SET STANDARDS THAT MUST BE AHERED TO.

I HAVE NOTICED OVER THE PAST EIGHT YEARS THE NUMBERS DROP IN MY NECK OF THE WOODS, WITH THE ALL TO FAMILIAR COMPLAINTS.

TO AVOID INCIDENTS LIKE THIS, WE AS MARSHALLS, IN AUSTRALIA HAVE TO START THE BALL ROLLING. OTHERWISE WE WILL LOOSE MORE EXPERIENCED PEOPLE AND THAT CAN ONLY BE A BAD THING FOR MOTOSPORT.

I WILL POINT OUT THAT THE AFL WENT THRU THE SAME THING YEARS AGO, WHY ARE PEOPLE NOT FOLLOWING AFL. THEY SAT DOWN AND REWORKED A FEW THINGS AND PICKED THEMSELVES UP.

SO, WHY AREN'T WE DOING IT.??? WE ALL COMMENT ON IT , YET IT DOESN'T GET PAST FIRST BASE. ARE THERE A FEW EGO'S THAT MAY GET BRUISED?

AS AN OLD BOSS OF MINE SAID, IF WE LOOSE A FEW ON THE WAY , SO BE IT, BUT WE WILL GET TO WHERE WE WANT TO BE.

psssst




caps lock

[275 GTB-4]

Originally Posted by ff s conscience

psssst
caps lock

I'm sure he will calm down once he has vented