Interesting Item on New Chassis in Indy Star (Merged)

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

Star, I'm still not seeing the need to sell IMS,so long as there is a prifitable IndyCar event to run there every year.

Selling the IICS is another story. I think they should sell the contracts and sanctioning to Delta, and let the owners do whatever they want. IICS either selects the Delta, or they reject it and expect no fight in the aftermath. Not likely.

Choosing Dallara makes money for IMS IICS, Indianapolis and Indiana. As for the specific design, if that's what this panel is really all about, they will select a final configuration that has wheel fairings pictured in the red Dallara #3 rendering.

What no one ever factors in with the hulmangeorgetrust is that there are quite a number of spawn and many of them just care about is the money. They don't have the same obsession with the speedway tony george did and many didn't appreciate him whizzing away so much of the money on the irl when they could have had the status quo and the money. They've got their own dreams and expenditures.

So I'd say the series is more likely get to sold but don't count out the speedway. Ole mari might want to sell that off and get it done now to avoid a horrible fight among heirs when the day comes.

I think the delta wing is again about money and control. Chipster is no dummy and with delta they'd have control of the money instead of the irl skimming off of dallara and using that as a revenue source.

The fans just want what they want whether it's danica in a bikini or a good show or a bunch of different chassis and engines or perhaps some good tracks with big wide seats to sit on or maybe even Milky Donuts on Dancing with the Stars. Whatever it is fans just consider what they want, but the deal is you have all these other people with money and power at stake and they don't have the same concerns.

[bjohnsonsmith]

I liked the depth of the Lola concept and that it also covers Indy Lites.

[JagtechOhio]

The S&M smiley icons just made my life complete.

[Tim Northcutt]

Here is the latest...

Looks like the owners will drive when the new chassis comes on-line:

http://www.indystar.com/article/2010...ms-afford-them

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Tim Northcutt

Here is the latest...

Looks like the owners will drive when the new chassis comes on-line:

http://www.indystar.com/article/2010...ms-afford-them

So they're going to continue to flog the dead horse, after all the hype of a new chassis, just so they can push the Delta Wing because they can't get it ready in time. It beggars belief.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Tim Northcutt

Here is the latest...

Looks like the owners will drive when the new chassis comes on-line:

http://www.indystar.com/article/2010...ms-afford-them

Everyone is rearranging the deck chairs all the while water is pouring hard into the lower decks.

I remember when irl fans were giving me a hard time cause at one point Champcar had a Lola chassis that was a couple of years old. Now you guys have one that is already eligible for historic racing.

[JagtechOhio]

A little help please:

For some reason, I can never see the second page of Cavin's articles. Could someone post it here? Thanks!

[bjohnsonsmith]

It doesn't work and sends you to the first page. Instead open your browser, copy the link into the address field, then it will work.

[JagtechOhio]

bjohnson, I think I had tried that previously, but will do so again, Thanks!

[JagtechOhio]

Can someone please post the second page of Cavin's article? Thanks!

[JagtechOhio]

Star, if you're around, you should love this:

"Ganassi added that while the actual race car will be revolutionary, it does not have to be in its current form, which has generated loads of comments--good and bad--since it was unveiled at the Chicago auto show in February.

“It doesn't have to look like that,” he said.

http://www.autoweek.com/article/20100328/IRL/100329887

____________________________________________________________

That's a joke. Bowlby made every concession that the aesthetics were not considered as a priority, but would be accepted when the concept was evaluated and appreciated.

Then he said, in response to the largely negative public reaction, that the prototype would be different than the model but that significant changes could not be made for the sake of meeting the design criteria.

Now, after trying to sell their sharp little pencil and failing, Ganassi and Delta will design what ever it takes. Even though they won't be building anything more than a prototype, either.

What a joke. Penske looked at the situation and shrugged his shoulders...then suggested we should just put the whole thing off.

The centerpiece of their movement failed, and the owners still are demanding control of the regulations. So what? If enough of them aren't willing to gamble on being able to finance a whole box full of pencils, they are waving a blank piece of paper around.

Owners complain that the current regulations are too restrictive, and that the equipment cost is too high. So they each take a $1.2M annual handout from the IICS, and then invest some of it in a pencil designed to re-write the future of IndyCar. And now they finally start to admit they can't afford new equipment anyway?


I read somewhere that the cost of new equipment would be prohibitive in the current environment, and now Randy Bernard has raised that point. So has Penske.

Now Penske is suggesting modifications to the current Dallara's configuration, and even postulated that a new engine spec should be approved and fitted to the existing chassis. He made these statements yesterday.

Ever read any of that before? Got a link? I never saw any of the stakeholders make any such concessions until now, amidst the entire discussion about the future chassis, the future engines, or the future of the IICS. All of which are still shrouded with ambiguity and defined by empty talking points.

And not a one of them answered the emails about all of these topics since last October.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

Now Penske is suggesting modifications to the current Dallara's configuration, and even postulated that a new engine spec should be approved and fitted to the existing chassis. He made these statements yesterday.

When I could get an audio feed from IMS radio, during yesterday's aborted race, they were talking about the proposal to revive the ancient Dallara chassis and go with a new engine package instead as it would be alot cheaper and even though the Dallara had been designed for oval racing it was doing fine on road and street courses.

They went on to say, how though race commentators etc., maybe get a little jaded by seeing the Dallara race after race, for the general public, who go to a race once a year it was like seeing a rocket ship; I ask you. They also went onto say that going down the new engine route could possibly lead to another chassis manufacturer coming on board but there was nothing concrete.

[Jimmy Magnusson]

Even though I'm desperate to see a new chassis (or rather, several new chassis), pushing the introduction date is the right thing to do. Not because of the Delta Wing, which seems to be the contributing factor here, but because the time frame is getting very tight. Even Swift isn't going to have 33 cars ready until the actual Month of May - that assuming they get the go ahead in the next month or two.

The danger here is that when we arrive in Brazil in 23 months time the cars will just have been finished, not tested by the teams and lack spares. A1GP first started thinking about their new chassis two years before their season opener, and in the end they had to cancel the first race, and by the second teams were still waiting for their cars, and some were being finished in the pit lane! All because of a single testing accident delaying the program. Two years may seem like a long time, but only Swift and maybe Lola and one of the Dallara designs (the conservative one) is at a stage that makes be feel anywhere near comfortable. And that they're all supposed to set up a new shop in Indy doesn't help.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Magnusson

Even though I'm desperate to see a new chassis (or rather, several new chassis), pushing the introduction date is the right thing to do. Not because of the Delta Wing, which seems to be the contributing factor here, but because the time frame is getting very tight. Even Swift isn't going to have 33 cars ready until the actual Month of May - that assuming they get the go ahead in the next month or two

Do you mean May 2011? That's ten months before the start of the 2012 season. In Formula 1 land there are several new teams who have designed and built brand new chassis in half the time; this is just a delaying tactic so Ganassi and Penske can have complete control of the IRL.

[Jimmy Magnusson]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Do you mean May 2011? That's ten months before the start of the 2012 season. In Formula 1 land there are several new teams who have designed and built brand new chassis in half the time; this is just a delaying tactic so Ganassi and Penske can have complete control of the IRL.

Nope. Swift plans to have a car ready to hit the track (for testing) in mid 2011. The next step is 25 cars for the start of the season (2012), and 33 come Indy.

[bjohnsonsmith]

It took the new F1 teams roughly 5 months to build, test and get the cars ready for Bahrain, so Swift can do the same, though they have a slight advantage as they are basing the car on their F Nippon chassis. However they then have to produce 30 odd cars and I don't know how long it takes to that but I wouldn't have thought it would take another 5 months.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Just heard on today's feed, that a second chassis to be raced alongside the revived Dallara is being talked about.

[JagtechOhio]

Barnhart was pointing to 18 months for design, prototyping, testing and construction. He was pushing for May of this year to have everything fully sorted to start 2012 in new equipment.

I wrote aero changes for 2010, optional alternate engine installation for 2011, and introduction of evolutionary chassis for 2012. The intent was to enable 2010 spec Dallara/ Hondas to run as long as teams could not afford to update them. The result would be at least two different chassis with at least two different engines in competition in 2012.

I sent this plan to Marshall Pruett and Robin Miller on Jan. 17, 2010, although the majority of it had been written much earlier. Miller promised to show it to "team owners". Mr. Bernard received it when he took office. No response from anyone.

Now it sounds like a lot of smart guys have come to some interesting new conclusions. Before Penske started talking a couple of weeks ago, none of these ideas had surfaced: everything was talk about new chassis and engines commncing 2012, no discussion about the guys who couldn't afford them or mention of modifying the Dallaras in the interim.

Unless you read any of it someplace else, which is what I'm interested to find out.

[Jimmy Magnusson]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

It took the new F1 teams roughly 5 months to build, test and get the cars ready for Bahrain, so Swift can do the same, though they have a slight advantage as they are basing the car on their F Nippon chassis. However they then have to produce 30 odd cars and I don't know how long it takes to that but I wouldn't have thought it would take another 5 months.

I'd say seven months is a bit more accurate, and I'm not sure that a chassis with that level of reliability would be acceptable. Kind of a poor show if the whole field is out with mechanical problems in the first half of the race. Now Lotus did get their car ready in a very short space of time, but that car is pretty much a straight copy from the Force India Gascoyne designed previously.

Building 30 cars quickly depends on your facilities. Swift obviously doesn't have the facilities, Dallara has. At least in Italy, where they probably build a hundred race cars during a year (if not more). If the car is built in Italy or at Huntington (Lola), I don't think the time frame is that much of a problem. But if you're going to set up an entierly new US facility to do it? Sorry, I don't buy it. Maybe Lola has a better shot here, since all they will be doing is assembling the cars, but still.

And while Swift will base their car on the Formula Nippon design (a sound business model, though if a three year old recycled car is a major step forwad is questionable), they're really not any further into the process than the conceptual stage. Still a lot of work to do. And if they do begin testing in mid 2011, that's far too late for my tastes. The DP01 began testing in roughly the same time frame, and we all saw the teething problems that car had at the start of the season... Montagny tested the GP2 car in summer 04 and come first race 05 they were changing the brakes on all cars during the Saturday...

Jag, I think the reason your suggestion wasn't considered was because few people were willing to accept reality. As they started looking closer at the time and economics (and politics) side of it, well, we're seeing it right now.

[JagtechOhio]

Jimmy, good analysis from the constuctors' side. Anyone manning up for the job will need time, and IICS will demand thorough testing. And 50 cars to start the season, if the Dallara I3 is to be discarded.

As for facing reality, it's hard for me to believe that any of these conclusions were not reached years ago. All these smart guys can't be that foolish, can they?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Magnusson

I'd say seven months is a bit more accurate, and I'm not sure that a chassis with that level of reliability would be acceptable. Kind of a poor show if the whole field is out with mechanical problems in the first half of the race. Now Lotus did get their car ready in a very short space of time, but that car is pretty much a straight copy from the Force India Gascoyne designed previously.

Building 30 cars quickly depends on your facilities. Swift obviously doesn't have the facilities, Dallara has. At least in Italy, where they probably build a hundred race cars during a year (if not more). If the car is built in Italy or at Huntington (Lola), I don't think the time frame is that much of a problem. But if you're going to set up an entierly new US facility to do it? Sorry, I don't buy it. Maybe Lola has a better shot here, since all they will be doing is assembling the cars, but still.

And while Swift will base their car on the Formula Nippon design (a sound business model, though if a three year old recycled car is a major step forwad is questionable), they're really not any further into the process than the conceptual stage. Still a lot of work to do. And if they do begin testing in mid 2011, that's far too late for my tastes. The DP01 began testing in roughly the same time frame, and we all saw the teething problems that car had at the start of the season... Montagny tested the GP2 car in summer 04 and come first race 05 they were changing the brakes on all cars during the Saturday...

5 or 7 months seems to be acceptible to the FIA, as far as F1 is concerned.

Swift have certainly shown they are capable of producing the required number of chassis for F Nippon and whilst it's based on the F Nippon chassis, it's not a direct copy. There's talk of Dallara building a facility at Indy. They need to assess whether that's economically viable. In the meantime California is a lot closer to Indy than Italy.

[Jimmy Magnusson]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

Jimmy, good analysis from the constuctors' side. Anyone manning up for the job will need time, and IICS will demand thorough testing. And 50 cars to start the season, if the Dallara I3 is to be discarded.

As for facing reality, it's hard for me to believe that any of these conclusions were not reached years ago. All these smart guys can't be that foolish, can they?

It's not about being foolish, I think, but overly optimistic. Two years plus (at the start of these proceedings) sounds like a lot of time. We'll probably be out of the recession by then. A new chassis can help us promote the series, help teams get more sponsorship, get the series moving forwards - it all seems great until you actually start dealing with it. And it appears to happen time and time again, regardless of previous experiences. Champ Car thought the new chassis would be the key in edging ahead of IndyCar, and A1GP thought it would take it to the next level with the Ferrari branding. Formula Nippon's grids have become smaller since they introduced the Swift, but I'm not knowledgeable enough about that championship to claim the chassis was the cause there. Lots of series in Europe cycle through chassis on a three year basis, but they have the endless supply of young drivers aiming for F1.

[JagtechOhio]

Agreed, it's never about the car....it's about the competitive level the car can provide, by putting the emphasis on driving skill. Then people watch good racing, and drivers earn recognition for their skill.

Improving the oval racing capabilities of the Dallara has been an evident need for a long time, and all anyone did was b*tch and tinker. And Bowlby could have spent 2009 screwing a four cyl. turbo into a Dallara, instead of designing his fantasy car.

[bjohnsonsmith]

I always thought the reason for a new chassis, or at least a major reason for one was the increasingly, flagging interest in the IRL since reunification, which it was hoped could be rekindled in part by reunification. This didn't happen as was seen last season.

However, since the rumours surrounding a new chassis have been bandied around, it's generated a lot of interest and has become a talking point, especially with the appearance of the Delta Wing. Maybe I'm way of the mark but the arrival of a new series sponsor and a new race on the calendar has gone hand in hand with talk of the new chassis.

There is an argument for delaying the new chassis and revamping the aged Dallara chassis and using a new engine but I just think that alot of race fans will feel a little let down at the prospect of nothing really new, that will help bring a resurgance to the IRL and that this initial enthusiasm, which has been bolstered by the success of the season's opening races, though they didn't go off as smoothly as was hoped, doesn't dwindle as the season progresses and we see half empty stands like we did last year.

[Jimmy Magnusson]

A new chassis is a short-term fix. Yes, the Delta Wing is innovative and has drawn some interest, but that will hardly be the case in its tenth year of competition (The current Dallara will have done ten seasons when it's retired, if they stick to introducing a new chassis for 2012). It's an attempt to gain fans by LOOK EXTREME CAR, but I suspect that X-Factor will not last. The key in revitalizing the series lies not in a new chassis, but in getting the series on network tv full time. It doesn't matter if the Versus coverage is great, there's never going to be enough people watching it. Getting on network TV is in my opinion the single most important thing to do, no matter if it's a time buy for the 12 races ABC isn't interested in. Sponsors like the exposure they get on Network TV. We may have a 25-car grid now, but it's not sustainable for half of it or more to have to bring money. Get on Network TV, get more sponsors, get more paid drivers and stable teams, who then can affoard to invest in a new chassis. Or perhaps even multiple chassis.