Interesting Item on New Chassis in Indy Star (Merged)

[bjohnsonsmith]

A new single chassis is a short term fix and will just lead to another spec series. I agree, though it has generated interest, I don't think the Delta Wing is the solution, it's too gimmicky.

TV is key, it provides the exposure the series and the sponsors need. The problem is how to realise this under the current circumstances. One way is to regenerate interest amongst existing fans and encourage new fans but how is that to be achieved under the current circumstances? I don't see flogging an old chassis for much longer is going to achieve this as it will just become boring. Different teams running different chassis and engines is something race fans would like to see again but the current economic constraints won't allow it. Converting the IRLs current situation into something that generates sustainable TV ratings is going to be very hard.

[bjohnsonsmith]

I rewrote part of what I wanted to say but ran out of editing time, so I'm posting it here:

A new single chassis is a short term fix and will just lead to another spec series. I agree, though it has generated interest, I don't think the Delta Wing is the solution, it's too gimmicky.

TV is key, it provides the exposure the series and the sponsors need. Converting the IRLs current situation into something that generates sustainable TV ratings is going to be very hard. The problem is how to realise this under the current circumstances. One way is to regenerate interest amongst existing fans and encourage new fans but how is that to be achieved under the current circumstances? I don't see flogging an old chassis for much longer is going to achieve this as it will just become boring. Different teams running different chassis and engines is something race fans would like to see again but the current economic constraints won't allow it.

The idea of possibly bringing in a second chassis to run along side a revived Dallara is potentially a good idea but I would like too see that implemented sooner rather than later or the impetus will be lost.

[JagtechOhio]

Jimmy, you are one of the very few people I have encountered that sees the big picture.

New cars are a novelty that have no ability to sustain an audience, UNLESS they enable good competition to keep the interest of the audience. You can do that with old cars just fine, and provide a transitional plan to include teams of all budget levels when new cars become available. The variety will add interest and maintain the car count, just like it always did in the past.

I had never heared of Versus until I read that they covered qualifying for Indy last year. Didn't know I had it, or where it was on my cable system. Now I browse it on occasion, and the rest of their programming is garbage.

There was never a good reason to select them as a broadcast partner, and I am familiar with all the ones given. Huge mistake.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

New cars are a novelty that have no ability to sustain an audience, UNLESS they enable good competition to keep the interest of the audience. You can do that with old cars just fine, and provide a transitional plan to include teams of all budget levels when new cars become available. The variety will add interest and maintain the car count, just like it always did in the past.

I don't think a new car has any more ability to sustain an audience through good competition, that keeps the audience interest, anymore than an old car. It's variety that sustains interest, look at F1. One of the reasons FOTA was dead against many of the FIA proposals to limit the budget last year, particularly Ferrari, was because of the spec aspect.

This transitional period combining old and new cars does sound like a good idea as it would provide variety but the timetabling is fairly crucial, if it's going to work otherwise if it's delayed for too long the potential audience will get fed up waiting.

[Jimmy Magnusson]

Jag, it's part of my job to see the big picture

Since arriving at Versus, IndyCar's audience has been in my view wittled down to the passionate core, the people who will go out of their way to locate the coverage and watch it, 17 cars or 25. Those people will always be there, and are probably enough for a .15 rating. Now, if IndyCar was cheap enough to run to a .15 audience there'd be no problems (except for being incredibly irrelevant in the US market) and you'd have a sustainable business model. But if the costs remain what they are, you simply need more people watching it. And those are not people who's never seen an open wheel race - they're people who stopped watching when the split occured, when CART went bankrupt, when Tracy or Fernández couldn't find a seat and so on. They're out there. They just need to be reeled back in, and if they stumble upon great racing while flipping through channels they just may stick around. People don't flip through Versus.

And even if the series can't be on ABC full time, ESPN would be an acceptable solution. The CW Trucks survive on SPEED, and that's a very expensive series to run a car in. People, in my mind, disover this coverage because they see NASCAR on Fox. The same thinking could perhaps be used to move people from ABC to EPSN. Still, there's few things that rival the way NASCAR is covered on FOX. People know that pretty much every week at roughly the same time there's a cup race on, and many of them discover SPEED through the preview and round-up shows on there. The only thing that devalues it is the summer tour on TNT and later on NBC.

But we are getting fast off topic here. What needs to happen on the chassis side is really for me a two pronged effort to support a move to ABC/ESPN. There needs to be sufficient modifications to provide spectacular oval racing, and Dallara needs to come up with an Evo package that can be retrofitted to the current cars to improve their look. One possibility is to offer two or three different Evo packages that have their own strengths and weaknesses but overall balanced in performance. Good racing is, and will never truly be, provided by spec cars, but by different answers to the same question, different strenths at different times in races. Just look at the Penske Porsches battling the Audis in ALMS a few years ago. The Spyders had the cornering but zero top line speed, the R10 the low-end grunt and overall top speed. Same lap speeds, and absolutely fascinating battles. Now, we can't have multiple chassis (I'll expand on that later), so different packages is the next best thing.

As for racing new cars with the older Dallara's, I'm not sold on it. Maybe it could work, but you're severly restricting yourself in terms of the new cars in that case. What you have to remember is that the Dallara is a very slow car road course wise. So either you have to run the new car at that speeds, or make the Dallara four or five seconds a lap faster, because that's the difference we should be talking about with the new car. I think this is unrealistic, and I prefer the evo package allow the series to grow to a level where a multi-chassis environment is sustainable. Ask Swift, they agree that multi-chassis adds something to the series, but right now they need the spec contract for their business model to work.

All this talk of chassis and we're all forgetting the engine, though. A green push with small, 1.4 - 1.6 litre four-cylinder or V6 engines, please. And please move away from Ethanol, it's only partially green and the green lobby will be bored with it soon. Buthanol, or maybe even an LPG engine, is preferable. Noisy but green.

[JagtechOhio]

Yep, got you pegged.

So what's your job?

[Jimmy Magnusson]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

Yep, got you pegged.

So what's your job?

My job, when I graduate (still at college), will be spatial planning. So luckily there'll be at least one guy on the right side of the fence when there's plans for a race track!

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Magnusson

What needs to happen on the chassis side is really for me a two pronged effort to support a move to ABC/ESPN. There needs to be sufficient modifications to provide spectacular oval racing, and Dallara needs to come up with an Evo package that can be retrofitted to the current cars to improve their look. One possibility is to offer two or three different Evo packages that have their own strengths and weaknesses but overall balanced in performance.

The idea of different 'EVO' packages is essentially what Lola have suggested; one chassis that can be better taylored to different tracks and that can look different too. So how does the EVO Dallara allow growth of the series and eventually multiple chassis, it can't be raced for ever and it will eventually have got to give way to something else?

[Jimmy Magnusson]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

The idea of different 'EVO' packages is essentially what Lola have suggested; one chassis that can be better taylored to different tracks and that can look different too. So how does the EVO Dallara allow growth of the series and eventually multiple chassis, it can't be raced for ever and it will eventually have got to give way to something else?

Yep, and Lola has other neat ideas too. The evo package is meant a stop-gap measure while TV ratings improve (this plan all hinges on getting onto a bigger channel) and allow the teams to gain more revenue and hiring drivers instead of taking money. Say a three-year or four-year evo plan and then open up for multi chassis. Ideally this would happen for 2011, but that won't be possible. For me, even though I would love to see a new car (I'm desperately tired of the Dallara), chassis is for me second in importance behind TV and equal to engine.

[bjohnsonsmith]

As 2011 is impossible, then when ideally would this happen? Also, I'm still don't see how the EVO Dallara paves the way for multiple chassis?

[Jimmy Magnusson]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

As 2011 is impossible, then when ideally would this happen?

For 2012, of course. Look, I'd love to replace the cars, and yes, there may be some initial interest, but there's a desperate need to look at the deeper problems the IRL is facing and adress them first. As this is being done, action still needs to be taken on the chassis front while keeping the scale of economics in mind. For me, there seems to be the following possible outcomes:

A - New Dallara/Swift/Lola chassis is selected, and will be raced exclusively in 2012. A few technical gremlins get much attention early on, and there is an ever so slight rejuvenation in interest. The interest gradually wanes off, while grids remain at circa today's level but with the same problems

B - Delta Wing is selected. There's a desperate struggle to finish the car on time, with a small grid (12-17 cars) for the first race, with bad PR as follows. It then picks up for Indy, with a full grid of 33, and there is much rejoicing. Next season is much better, but then interest trails off.

C - Either of the above but with an added curve ball, such as another economic down turn, major sponsor hiccup, major technical problem with the cars and so on. Small grids (think Champ Car), series loosing money before it all goes to pot. Next year series is relaunched either by team owners or NASCAR. Think IRL 96-97.

D - There is a major promotion push to gain more fans, and in consequence, more interest from sponsors. Series starts to move in the right direction, if ever so slowly.

If A or B occurs, we'll be having the same discussion in ten years time. We'll have gained nothing. If C, well, then there'll either be a rebirth from the ashes (CART v2), a desperate continuation (Champ Car v2) or in NASCAR's hands (Grand Am v2). This all comes back to my belief that the deeper issues of the series needs to be resolved before anything else is done. Too much time has been wasted standing still doing nothing.

And lastly, the Evo Dallara is in itself not something that will lead to multiple chassis. Its purpouse is to rejuvenate interest (because there does need to be something done about the chassis) while keeping the costs in check until improved fan interest and increased levels of sponsorship allows for a multi-chassis environment.

[Purist]

Jimmy, I know I won't, and I don't think a lot of fans will, enjoy the sound of a tiny "green' engine like what you suggest. This isn't FFord or WTCC, and should therefore NOT sound like either of the above.

Also, who knows how long this "green" thing will last this time around? Ethanol is loosing a fair bit of steam. Fuel cells are still seen as a ways off, and battery technology needs to improve massively for electric cars. For electrics, if you plug in, then you're still likely burning some sort of fuel for the juice you get from the outlet. Also, those schemes you can buy to get your house off the power grid with wind or solar are often impractical, and can't recoup their own cost in the savings you might get over the lifetime of the equipment. However, since everybody wants a quick fix, commercial ventures don't like literally home-grown ventures taking part of the pie, and fewer and fewer people in the 1st World actually know how to build or make things, sustainable new energy solutions are not going to be so easy to come by. Not to mention, unless gas prices spike again, we'll probably get used to the present status quo, and become complacent again for a while.

Back to the beginning thought, I was thinking about pressing into service some tweaked, but already existing engines. We have the Cosworth. 2.65-litre, turbo V8s already. I was thinking that the 2.5-litre Volvo T5 might have some potential. And also, there are many iterations of the Porsche flat-6 equipped with turbos. You could probably find a way to make one of those work anywhere in the range from the 2.2-litre to the 2.85-litre lump. i would think that these can give you an apparently more environmentally conscious solution than the current 3.5-litre V8, but still retain a more unbridled, throaty aural experience, and I don't see why using these engines couldn't be made a reasonable proposition cost-wise.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Magnusson

For me, there seems to be the following possible outcomes:

Obviously alot of scenarios to ponder over. However with recent developments and announcements it would seem there's going to be a mixture of EVO Dallara racing against new chassis, which has led some to think it's ruse to allow more time for the Delta Wing and others say it's allows more time for the IRL to wither away and the owners to step in and run the show; something they've been wanting to do for some time.

The owner angle interests me. If they go ahead with their revamped/EVO Dallara package, it will be running with a new engine, according to what's been recently said. Now when Honda leave there is no one at present to fill their shoes. However Kevin Kalkhoven, of KV Racing Technologies is a part owner of Cosworth and there is a Cosworth link with his Lotus endeavour. I don't think it's too fantastical to suggest he could be in a position to supply engines, thus giving the team owners a complete monopoly; until they eventually fall out with themselves.

[JagtechOhio]

Post #81 (page 6) from this thread, dated 1/17/10.

Have a read and tell me what you think now. That's the rough notes of the "Stay On Track" paper I sent out. Most of it was conceived last October, so the 2010 changes are already too late to be applicable.

[bjohnsonsmith]

I had a quick read and it is basically similar to Jimmy Magnusson's and the Ganassi EVO Dallara, running along side a newer chassis and a relatively cheaper 4 cyl Turbo engine that can compete with Honda's current package and allow the smaller teams to participate. As to who makes the engine, Cosworth could.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Correction: the Penske EVO Dallara.

[JagtechOhio]

"Jimmy Magnusson's and the Ganassi EVO Dallara"

I'm not real sure what that means.

If it means a Dallara with a 4 cyl turbo that now doesn't need an airbox, has a lower profile engine cover and a redesigned rear wing to take advantage of the resulting cleaner air flow, then you know what I mean.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

"Jimmy Magnusson's and the Ganassi EVO Dallara".

It was in reference to the EVO Dallara program Jimmy Magnusson was advocating, earlier in this thread and a similar Dallara program as outlined very recently by Roger Penske; not Chip Ganassi which was an error on my part.

[JagtechOhio]

Post #268 (page 18), 2/13/10

[bjohnsonsmith]

I had a quick read but at this juncture a new engine and the upgradeable EVO Dallara are just more ideas, though coming from Penske it has the hint of possibility but we can speculate.

[Purist]

Jag, please just give the post number. Clearly, not all of us are using the same settings with regards to how many posts appear on each page.

[JagtechOhio]

Oh, OK

268

[JagtechOhio]

If I was going to pick the most difficult engine to install in a Dallara, it would be a flat 6. A freaking V12 would be easier.

[mountainstar]

I say go counter to what the current fad all the followers are following, which is being GREEN and politically correct.

Go totally opposite and counter culture with loud, spitting engines and scary looking cars with some REAL drivers that don't spend their spare time getting their hair and nails done.

I'd reckon you'd have a major hit on your hands as you'd stand out in the marketplace from all these other sports and companies and fans all obsessed with wiping someone elses butt rather than having a good time.

[JagtechOhio]

Green is a joke for IndyCars. The Ethanol program got them nothing but free Brazillian sugar cane juice. I bet Honda was real glad they threw away the 3.0's to build a redesigned 3.5 to burn it.

Make alternative fuel source a 2015 objective, then put it off for a few years like everything else, and keep telling everybody how environmentally friendly your series is.