Interesting Item on New Chassis in Indy Star (Merged)

[bjohnsonsmith]

Well Jag I gave it a good read as I said I would. It's similar to Roger Penske's very recent idea of upgrading the existing Dallara chassis, however your proposal predates his idea and goes into much greater detail.

One of the main problems the IRL faces with a spec series, is a lack of real competition and this proposal allows for that competition but at an affordable price. It also addresses another of the IRL's problems, team budgets as well as adding variety which is sorely missing in a spec series.

I don't think it's necessary to discuss the aerodynamic changes at this juncture as this is not where the initial objections are going to be focused on. If they are going to be focused anywhere it's going to be on the engines; primarily the turbo won't match the Dallara/Honda engine and secondly a 1.6L in line-4 turbo is less of an engine purely because it's not some humungous V8, that does half a mile on 4 gallons.

I remember the interest created at the onset of the turbo era in F1, when Renault debuted their turbo engined Renault RS01 at the 1977 British GP at Silverstone. I went to that race. Up until then it was basically Ford-Cosworth 3.0L V8 DFV v Ferrari 3.0L Flat-12 Boxer. By 1983 the turbo engine was dominant but those years produced some excellent racing and brought a dynamic to the competition that wasn't there before; you were either a Cosworth fan or a Ferrari turbo fan, possibly a Brabham BMW fan but never a Renault turbo fan, unless you were French.

Turbo engines are certainly not new to Indy Car racing, the venerable Offy springs to mind, as well as the Cosworth DFX, though normally aspirated engines are. I believe a return to turbos would generate much needed interest and an inline-4 could instill some nostalgia, reminiscent of the Offy. Plus the novelty of Indy Cars racing with turbos and non-turbos would be just as exciting as it was in F1.

As to the first objection, turbos not matching the Dallara/Honda, the same argument that they couldn't match non turbos was used when they first appeared in F1. Once reliability had been resolved, so turbos were competative, their dominance over normally aspirated engines in F1 was proved otherwise. These days turbo reliability is not the problem it was.

As for the second objection, is anyone really going to care once the car's racing, if it's not some humungous engine that does half a mile on 4 gallons? I doubt it.

This proposal offers Indy Car racing a unique solution to the lack of competition and variety that is needed and it's affordable.

[JagtechOhio]

Well bjohnson, I got to hand it to you. You reached into all that mud I wrote and pulled out the most important points, and even cleaned them up a little in the process. Thank you for the effort and the response.

It makes David and Goliath drama, right? Turbo 4 vs. V8, old chassis vs. new, little guy against big? And the decreased downforce limits the advantage the big guy has now.

And gives you one new chassis to look at, one updated Dallara body style, plus the original we've come to know and love. Hopefully more than just one version of the 4 cyl turbo to listen to, along with the V8. Cars with different performance characteristics, the playing field leveled with some regulations, and run what you brung.

I'm working on the list of specific builders and engines now, to see if there is enough reality under some more of the mud. Thanks for the kind words and your input!

[bjohnsonsmith]

Not a problem and it was good to be able to contribute to the debate. Personally I'd like to see a chassis from another manufacturer/manufacturers eventually added to the mix.

[JagtechOhio]

[JagtechOhio]

There's the old girl we know and love

Tonight, I saw a rendering on Track Forum. There have been a few amateurs playing around with photos since the chassis design renderings start appearing.

So a guy puts two and two together, and draws a Dallara to look like it had a turbo in it...without the airbox. He sticks some funky looking wings on it, and the picture looks like...

[JagtechOhio]

[JagtechOhio]

OK, Rick stuck a pair of front wings on the thing that are similar to one of the new renderings. The nose and sidepods look original to me.

The engine cover is reprofiled with the airbox removed, as in my previous written description.

That may enable a smaller rear wing: however, the endplate mountings for the wing that Rick used are actually a good idea, whether he chose them by intent or not.

Those would form one attachment point for fairings aft of the rear wheels to prevent contact, like the latest BAT renderings have.

In the "Stay On Track" plan, those would be the two chassis in 2011 competition. A third evolutionary chassis would be added for 2012.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Rick Jones eh? I'm familiar with his work and it is very good.

With the airbox is removed it's not too dissimilar from one their new concepts for a new chassis.

[JagtechOhio]

Quite right Ben, although I personally detest the shark fin look.

The same car with the redesigned engine cover doesn't look too bad though, does it?

Easy for casual fans to recognize two different styles, as well as the different engine notes.

[JagtechOhio]

This is a "500 plus" horsepower turbo four cylinder installed in a 2007 Lola chassis...Dyson Racing runs he same package now in a Lola coupe.

The AER MZR-R is a bespoke design, and configured for stressed engine installation. I don't believe that installing a non-stressed stock block engine with an adapter plate, and possibly engine bay X bracing, would be a great feat.


2007 photo, this is th extinct BK Racing entry I believe.

Sorry about the size, I think if you open it with "windows picture viewer" you can enlarge it.

[JagtechOhio]

This is the same engine that Ben Bowlby has selected for use in the Delta Wing concept vehicle, detuned to 300 HP or so.

That's because it weighs only 163 lbs. as pictured, and his designed required the lightest weight available. If another 50 lbs was no problem, I don't see why he would have selected a $150,000 engine to make 300 HP. There are quite a number of other choices, some right off the showroom floor.

[bjohnsonsmith]

It's very reminiscent of this Renyard 2Ki from the last few years of the CART era,




which a lot of fans would like to see a return to, though you will get some purists who won't like it because it's not a Lola or a Reynard.

[JagtechOhio]

Yep, and I think the smaller rear wing is no problem, now that it's running in cleaner air. That car looks like it is in speedway trim...from Indy?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Yes, speedway trim, not Indy as this car was made by Reynard for the 2001 CART season. Shame about Reynard but I hear he has started again.

[JagtechOhio]

From the top:

Normally aspirated GM Ecotec, Revolution Racing Engines, for midget car application

Factory stock Ecotec 2.0 Turbo, all accessories fitted

Ecotec 2.4 Turbo in a Pontiac Solstice, Hahn Racecraft Stage Two updates. This is a 400HP street engine with almost no internal mods. Drag race builds of this engine have been quoted as high as 1,400 HP (good for 25 passes).

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Magnusson

I'd say seven months is a bit more accurate, and I'm not sure that a chassis with that level of reliability would be acceptable. Kind of a poor show if the whole field is out with mechanical problems in the first half of the race. Now Lotus did get their car ready in a very short space of time, but that car is pretty much a straight copy from the Force India Gascoyne designed previously.

Thought you might like to view this. As for a straight copy, there are similarities but they still had to build it from scratch.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/moto...ne/8600711.stm

[courageous]

Curtosy of MSN, I think we may have found the inspiration for the Delta Wing...

ladies & gentlemen, the 1978 Wolfrace Sonic

[Juarez Jed]

Thanks for showing us some of the engines Jagtech, more builder and manufacturer involvement is a good thing.

I was like purist in not wanting to go down the green eco road with the choice of engine, but that does not mean you can't embrace 4 cyl turbos as an alternative to N/A V8s.

Over the years in dirt and asphalt short track speedway the sprintcar classes have always been dominated by Chevs with the odd Ford and Mopar. However the midgets and speedcar classes have always had great manufacturer diversity with small sixes, fours and rotaries all producing great racing and making great noises, and they spit out impressive blue flames.

As mr johnson points out, there is a great history of turbos at Indy and in the F1 ranks. The F1 engines of the eighties were producing enormous horsepower when cranked up to high boost in qualifying but they were far from "green" despite their 1.5 capacity. In fact they were quite literally toxic if you got too close for any period of time, due to their exotic fuel blends.

So I'm sure we could find a happy middle ground with engines that manage to make a nice sound and produce high horsepower without having to run at high boost with exotic fuel blends in order to do so. If they are representative of the 2.0- 2.5 litre mainstream fours that most manufacturers are putting in their cars then that is a good marketing strategy without having to go to the 1.6 litre eco extreme of WTCC that would perhaps be more suitable for an Indy Lights sized chassis.

[JagtechOhio]

Autobloggreen, March 10, 2010:

"At 61.9 percent of total passenger car sales, the once lowly four-cylinder is now on top by a wide margin. Compared to 2008 numbers of 51.7 percent, the four-cylinder engine displayed market gains unheard of in previous years. In addition, the once-dominant V8 now represents only 4.9 percent of the passenger car market, way down from its 88.9 percent share back in 1969".
___________________________________________________________

That's the basis to proof my previous conjecture:

"So the first day that viewer sees a turbo four win a race, he notices that the new kid on the block beat the big old motor. And he smiles as he hops into his four cylinder econobox to drive home from the track, just like half of the other people that were there."

Direct injection systems and improved turbocharger technology now enable auto manufacturers to increase fuel efficiency while improving power to weight ratios. Variable valve timing (V V T) makes bell-shaped torque curves as dated as a small block Chevy: peak torque is sustainable over a broad range of RPM levels.

That's not a bunch of my buzzwords about "future" or "green": that's the reality all of the following vehicles now employ, or will soon be released with:

2010 Buick LaCrosse, Ecotec 4 cyl. turbo
2010 Chevy Cruise, Ecotec 1.4 4 cyl. turbo
2010 Hyundai Genesis, 2.0 4 cyl. turbo (212 HP)
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2.0 4 cyl. turbo (274 HP)
2010 Audi A5, TFSI 2.0 4 cyl. turbo (211 HP)
2010 Audi TTS, TFSI 2.0 4 cyl. turbo (265 HP)
2010 VW Passat, 2.5 4 cyl. turbo (200 HP)
2010 Mazda CX7 2.5L 4 cyl. turbo. Replacing their existing 2.3 (244 HP)

Now under development:

2011 Ford Edge, EcoBoost 2.0 4 cyl. turbo (230 HP)
Ford F-150 truck may get the same powerplant
2011 Porsche Boxter 2.0 or 2.4L 4 cyl. inline turbo. This will be a new engine, or the TFSI platform from Audi
Mercedes F800 Style coupe. AMG is developing a 2.0 4 cyl. turbo (300 HP)
Volvo S80, S70, XC60 2.0 4 cyl. turbo (203 HP)
BMW 4 cyl. turbo (diesel) planned for U.S. market

If you want the sport to be considered as relevant, and wave the flag of increased efficiency, it's not about V8 power anymore.

Of the engines listed above, the GM Ecotec is the only one I can point to for sure that has received extensive manufacturer development for racing applications.

A new engine formula of 2.4 liters or less opens the door to all of those engines, in addition to the list presented in post #561:

AER P0 17 2.0L
Mazda MZR-R 2.0L
Ford Duratec 2.3L
Toyota 503E 2.1L
Toyota (Lotus) 2ZZ-GE 1.93 L
Subaru EJ20 2.29L

I know that the majority of these engines have alloy cylinder blocks, and have been careful not to include older cast iron plaforms. Achieving the equivalent power to weight ratio in a Dallara I3 with 575 HP is reasonable in my opinion. After my most recent conversation with a builder, more HP in a reliable package is entirely conceivable.

This is not about waiting for a manufacturer to accept an invitation to develop a bespoke racing engine on one of their existing platforms, like the AER MZR-R. They don't want the job, and IICS teams can't afford their work.

The work's already been done. Open the dyno room and see who brings their engines to demonstrate. More will come the following year, as the newer engines become available and builders get to wrenching on them.

Then you turn to the manufacturer, and see if they are interested in paying for the badging. If not, too bad. IndyCar will have relevant and affordable power to race with regardless.

Reduced cost, raceability, improved efficiency, relevance, and the alternate engine in the existing chassis creates a variety in performance and the shape of the race cars. That's why it is worthwhile, yet still enables the low budget teams to run their old gear.

And that's the first transisition step to ending spec racing. It could have begun in 2006.

[JagtechOhio]

This is a quote from Audi Sport's engine boss Dr. Ulrich Baretzky. It appears in an article published today by Gordon Kirby, and the link is below. Not much of it is new information, some interesting overview.

It's a general statement that Baretzky made when discussing new engine specs for Le Mans:

"And as soon as a two-liter turbo shows up," he adds, "they will have a chance to win because the efficiency of the two liter turbo is far higher than a normally-aspirated V-8, no doubt about it."

http://www.gordonkirby.com/categorie..._is_no228.html

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

This is a quote from Audi Sport's engine boss Dr. Ulrich Baretzky. It appears in an article published today by Gordon Kirby, and the link is below. Not much of it is new information, some interesting overview.

It's a general statement that Baretzky made when discussing new engine specs for Le Mans:

"And as soon as a two-liter turbo shows up," he adds, "they will have a chance to win because the efficiency of the two liter turbo is far higher than a normally-aspirated V-8, no doubt about it."

http://www.gordonkirby.com/categorie..._is_no228.html

That's a very interesting article. I had a look at it it but I will give it a good read.

[JagtechOhio]

I couldn't find the original article in racecar engineering just now, but I believe the big talk about the Global Racing Engine started in the summer of 2008.

That puts Audi in step with IndyCar time concepts. "Someday" is the IICS Official 8th day of the week.

[Purist]

I suppose I don't comprehend some of the mentality you describe, Jag. I just find econoboxes demoralizing. They don't look like anything, and they are utterly indistinguishable from one another for me. They try to be both a sports car and a sedan. They're ugly amorphous blobs that have no resemblance to a sedan, but are too heavy and blunt to be sports cars either. They look and sound mundane. I just don't care one jot for them, and I'll never drive any one of them much, if at all, because I can't get a license due to my poor eyesight.

So, if I find the econoboxes that uninspiring and demoralizing, why on Earth would I want my racing to remind me in the least of those forgettable contraptions on the road?

Besides, a little, turbo four-banger doesn't make a throaty, rich sound. it doesn't vibrate your chest, or shake the ground on which you stand. It can be almost otherworldly. The total stimulation, and this goes beyond mere sensory pick-up, is just unbelievable. It's inspiring and rejuvenating to realize they you as a human being are even capable of feeling so much. You forget that a key component of entertainment value is the escapism element; like Hell you want you're entertainment to remind you of your daily grind!

If racing ceases to provide that full, rich, sensory and soulful experience to the viewers on TV and in person, it will die, period.

[Juarez Jed]

I definately prefer your proposal Jagtech to the GRE model. By going with your engines Jagtech, Indycars can be relevant to the market but still "big" in comparison with the GRE. They can be relatively economical (compared to V8s), and encourage small engine builders to participate. The GRE seems more suited to global manufacturers in world championship series where having green credentials is necessary to justify factory funding. If the big players in Indycars want to return to the days of multiple factory supplied powerplants in their Deltawings then the GRE will be where they are looking rather than the Honda V6.

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

This is a quote from Audi Sport's engine boss Dr. Ulrich Baretzky. It appears in an article published today by Gordon Kirby, and the link is below. Not much of it is new information, some interesting overview.

It's a general statement that Baretzky made when discussing new engine specs for Le Mans:

"And as soon as a two-liter turbo shows up," he adds, "they will have a chance to win because the efficiency of the two liter turbo is far higher than a normally-aspirated V-8, no doubt about it."

http://www.gordonkirby.com/categorie..._is_no228.html

If Dr. Baretzky is really confident about that, then why have Porsche, Acura, Judd and Zytek 3.4L V-8s kicked AER and Mazda's 4-banger 2.0L turbo butts in both the ALMS and LMS competitions over the past few years?

In fact, when the Audi R-10 with its Diesel competed against those same 3.4 L LMP2s in 2008, the 3.4 L V-8s were even getting overall race wins in the ALMS...