Interesting Item on New Chassis in Indy Star (Merged)

[JagtechOhio]

Hi Tim,

Thanks for joining in...you could school me all day on ALMS/ LMS racing, I know a little about the AER and nothing else.

Do you have any idea about the V8 power output and comparative weights of the cars? I guess I'm looking for whatever equivalency is applied that apparently the ARE couldn't live up to, get my drift?

I think I have the ACO regs somewhere, don't waste any time on it if it's stuff you'd have to research.

Jed, thanks again for your thoughts...I wish one of them was my engine!!! But two Ecotec guys say they have the hardware, and I'm looking for more.

[JagtechOhio]

A Conversation with Roger Penske
4/05/2010 4:32 PM ET By Holly Cain

Roger Penske:

"My recommendation is one manufacturer and force everybody (to have the same) block, cylinder head, the crank, the rods. All of that cost, we all buy the same stuff. then we take that to Chevrolet and say, you develop your intake manifolds, and put your stuff on the web so we can see what it is. ... everybody would have the same base for the expensive stuff.''

Penske: "If there's going to be an engine change, let's do the engine change and put it in the existing car because that would save us. You've got 24 teams with two or three (cars), that's 75 cars, you've got 20 million bucks that would have to be spent by the teams right now in an environment where you don't want to spend that (much) capital. That's a lot of money.

http://motorsports.fanhouse.com/2010...-roger-penske/
___________________________________________________

Yeah, kinda like that, Cap'n. But not JUST the Chevy.

[bjohnsonsmith]

To be honest, this proposal of Roger Penske's seems so visionless.

[JagtechOhio]

Interesting that he said the magic word..."Chevrolet".

I'm still not sure these guys know what is out there. That's why they should send the invitations, and see who shows up with what.

I can hardly wait to read what comes out next. Paul Ray of Ilmor Engines, IMS Board member Jeff Belskus, AA team engineer Tom Anderson, TV commentator Jon Beekhuis, writer Gordon Kirby, and IICS Driver and new owner of MCT Engines Davey Hamilton got the plan on April 1.

No responses. Nothing from Robin Miller since he got it in January.

[climb]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

To be honest, this proposal of Roger Penske's seems so visionless.

But so filled with the common sense many seem to lack

[JagtechOhio]

He's kinda leaving Chip holding the bag, isn't he. Penske went from an investing partner in Delta to a real cheerleader for the IICS in about two weeks.

Not looking good for Team Spaceplane.

[mz2k]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

He's kinda leaving Chip holding the bag, isn't he. Penske went from an investing partner in Delta to a real cheerleader for the IICS in about two weeks.

Not looking good for Team Spaceplane.

Not surprising, is it? Penske has always been about Penske and no one else.

I truly believe that he only cares about Indy, where his team is so dominant. He left CART for the IRL as soon as he cashed in on CART's IPO and sold his tracks to the ISC.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by mz2k

I truly believe that he only cares about Indy, where his team is so dominant.

Except for Indy 1995, when Penske failed to qualify. In fact, that's what probably keeps him going, that bitter memory.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

He's kinda leaving Chip holding the bag, isn't he. Penske went from an investing partner in Delta to a real cheerleader for the IICS in about two weeks.

Not looking good for Team Spaceplane.

Penske and Ganassi are the worst two guys you could have involved in moving the sport forward. Penske the worst of the two.

The reason being is both are so ego centric. Both have built the perfect business circle with the race team helping their business dealings and using the business dealings to help the race team. Kudos for them doing that so well, but everything they do revolves around that, not the wider picture.

Doesn't matter to them what the chassis is, how many people turn up to the races, who watches, whatever. All that matters is keeping the silverware coming in and keeping their business cycle going.

As I said before, Delta Wing is about power, control and money. Everyone out there thinks of it as some benevolent savior of indycar. Nope this is about who has the cards and the revenue.

Ganassi and Penske are both opportunists and everything they do is for their intense personal benefit and ego. I think if people are putting their faith in either of those two to "save the sport", well you have misjudged IMHO.

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Penske and Ganassi are the worst two guys you could have involved in moving the sport forward. Penske the worst of the two.

The reason being is both are so ego centric. Both have built the perfect business circle with the race team helping their business dealings and using the business dealings to help the race team. Kudos for them doing that so well, but everything they do revolves around that, not the wider picture.

Doesn't matter to them what the chassis is, how many people turn up to the races, who watches, whatever. All that matters is keeping the silverware coming in and keeping their business cycle going.

As I said before, Delta Wing is about power, control and money. Everyone out there thinks of it as some benevolent savior of indycar. Nope this is about who has the cards and the revenue.

Ganassi and Penske are both opportunists and everything they do is for their intense personal benefit and ego. I think if people are putting their faith in either of those two to "save the sport", well you have misjudged IMHO.

Couldn't have written it better myself...

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Doesn't matter to them what the chassis is, how many people turn up to the races, who watches, whatever. All that matters is keeping the silverware coming in and keeping their business cycle going.

So what happens if the IRL continues on its path of death by a thousand cuts, how do Chip and Roger get the silverware to continue coming in and keep their business cycle going, reinvent the Indy Car series or rely on their involvment in other series?

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

So what happens if the IRL continues on its path of death by a thousand cuts, how do Chip and Roger get the silverware to continue coming in and keep their business cycle going, reinvent the Indy Car series or rely on their involvment in other series?

I think the answer is to compare the size of their Nascar operations to that of their irl teams.

If you look at Penske's racing history, he has never concerned himself with the long term future of series he has competed in. He has always been content to raid them for what is needed at the time and if the series croaks so be it. Trans Am, Can Am, USAC, CART, whatever.

He is basically a pirate that suffers from obsessive compulsive disorder.

And this isn't a personal attack either, but that we all have our up and down sides and these are not the guys you should be putting faith in to "save the sport". These are not guys that can be benevolent leaders of an entire series or sport.

[JagtechOhio]

Probably every word of that is true, and neither Penske or Ganassi has the power to save the sport even if that was there intention. And I agree, they aren't looking much beyond their own castles.

Star, excellent point about the mushroom busting that Penske has done in every series he has walked over. Never looked at it that way, it's a pretty impressive resume.

I'd also look at the state of the IICS and say that it cannot survive without them...and both owners have their options in place.

So there's going to be some amount of "appease to please" going on, right? Like it ot not, some of the decision making will have to be compromised by what keeps Chip and Roger happy.

Before, it looked like they had similar intentions: now, not so sure. But what is best for the racing and the health of the sport are background issues, the way it looks from this end.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

So there's going to be some amount of "appease to please" going on, right? Like it ot not, some of the decision making will have to be compromised by what keeps Chip and Roger happy.

Well tony george went and walked off from a sport that was a serious rival to Nascar at that point in time(1994) and he didn't care what happened to anyone at all.

So it depends how much appeasing the purse string holders and real controllers can do or want to do. Or if they even want to take on board what penske or ganassi may desire.

And neither of those guys can really cry foul as they played their part over the past 15 years playing both sides(CART and irl and those involved such as the manufacturers) to their financial benefit.

[JagtechOhio]

"I have forwarded some of this on to my friends at GMR. To my surprise, they are very interested and are wanting to know more."

Which is really interesting, since that indicates to me that GM Racing has never considered the idea, or been approached with a similar proposal from Penske or anyone else.

Nobody involved with IndyCar ever looked for another engine to use until Bowlby did? And nobody thought about installing an alternate in the Dallara until Penske brought it up at St. Pete?

That's pretty hard to believe. I know IICS have been waiting for a manufacturer to walk in and drop a new deal on the table, but there haven't been any comers. And they only discussed a new engine platform as accompanying a new chassis.

So they did nothing instead?

[Juarez Jed]

Great to see that word is finally getting out that there are alternative solutions to be considered for the future of Indycar other than just "which spec chassis do we choose". I suspect that everyone was looking at the new chassis and engine package as the saviour and with the delays in the chassis decision the engine has been overlooked as a separate entity.
Roger Penske's proposal is at least practical in that he realises there just isn't the money to go around to support 40 new Speedracers (including spares) but when he starts talking about 2012 and beyond with the current chassis and a Chevrolet powerplant one wonders if he is merely preparing for the death of the series or his own withdrawal by not investing too much in new equipment.
Obviously in recent times we have seen Champcar and A1GP close after just one season with the Panoz and Ferrari respectively so I can understand the reluctance to invest in new chassis when the future direction of the series is unclear, but to keep the old chassis unchanged indefinitely is just going to run the series into the ground with no hope of attracting new interest from fans,sponsors or network tv.
At least your proposal Jagtech creates new fan interest and encourages engine manufacturer participation without massive financial outlay, whilst allowing new chassis to be introduced gradually as finances allow. Hopefully as word gets around more people will see the obvious advantages of your proposal over the other alternatives Jagtech.

[JagtechOhio]

Thanks Jed, that's the picture entirely.

Now that Penske finally opened his pie hole, it just might be that people in the inner circle will listen. It's about transition, not the effort to retool for no clear reason and no defined benefit.

You gave two good examples of why a complete retooling plan is DOA.

[Jimmy Magnusson]

Wow, that was a lot to catch up after being gone a week! I have to say I'm very impressed by your suggestion, Jag. It creates variety with sense and not because of some artificial cars-have-to-look-different-evo-package, keeps the scale of economics firmly in mind and the engine regs are quite sensible. It may not be the ideal IndyCar (another story completely), but it's a damn big step in the right direction.

[JagtechOhio]

Thanks Jimmy, very much appreciated.

Most of it was carved out by January, but the details on the engine spec are taking shape and might be getting some serious evaluation.

Before Penske started talking, nobody anywhere would listen. It doesn't look like any sort of transition plan had been considered. No telling if anybody read it, but the dominoes are now in the public discussion.

It would be nice to see them all standing up. No way I could engineer a single one of them, but all the right people are in all the right places. If they stand up, it works.

When you watch Barber this weekend, think about how much more passing there would be if the overtake assist was 50 HP, and you could use it in 20 second bursts for 25% of the race laps. The secondary factor would then become different fuel strategies, which is a variable they also removed.

What they will have is 10 HP assist for 20 applications. This race will more than likely be a parade, there is hardly anyplace to overtake and the drivers all said so when they first tested there in spring...of 2009. Nothing was done.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Ganassi and Penske are both opportunists and everything they do is for their intense personal benefit and ego. I think if people are putting their faith in either of those two to "save the sport", well you have misjudged IMHO.

Both being successful business men, I would agree with you but I don't see how Chip and Roger can be satisfied with participating in a series that is stagnating, starved of media exposure and sponsors. The fact that Marlboro pulled out and Penske himelf is now "sponsoring" two of his three car team is telling. On this basis it's quite conceivable another major sponsor will pull out and that won't instill a lot of confidence in potential sponsors.

Delaying on a new chassis and the possibility of continuing to use the old chassis, Chevy engine or not, will be seen as dithering and directionless as regards to the future of the sport; again not a confidence booster to prospective sponsors.

However, if they are opportunists, then this isn't about saving the IRL but instead is about slowly killing it off and starting again with an owner's agenda.

[Tim Northcutt]

Just read this in my e-mail inbox:

Wind Tunnel Test Validates DeltaWing Design Parameters
Results of wind tunnel test confirm extensive simulation work
Aerodynamic drag reduced to less than half of the current generation IndyCar

INDIANAPOLIS, Indiana (April 8, 2010) - DeltaWing LLC, of Indianapolis, today announced the initial results of its first full size model test in the state-of-the-art Windshear wind tunnel on April 6, 2010 in Concord, North Carolina.

"The test was a huge success and confirmed the trends of our advanced computational fluid dynamics modeling," said Ben Bowlby, Designer and Chief Technology Officer of DeltaWing LLC. "We are very pleased that the results in the wind tunnel support our CFD findings. This is a critical step for the project and allows us to move forward towards a final design with the growing confidence gained from these results. We continue to believe that the car will respond on the race track as our simulations have predicted over the past 16 months. We are more convinced than ever that the DeltaWing concept will meet or exceed the parameters that the IZOD IndyCar Series has established for the 2012 chassis."

The full size model used Firestone tires that were specifically manufactured for the DeltaWing car and completed the majority of the test at wind and road speeds of 140 mph. "The test could not have gone any better," said Bowlby. "The Firestone tires were excellent and it is a testament to their advanced design and manufacturing technology that they were able to create these tires in such a compressed time frame. Firestone is a great partner to work with."

The moving ground plane roadway of the Windshear facility was also put to use in analyzing wet condition spray patterns from the front wheels. The test established that spray off the narrow front wheels is minimal and will not interfere with the driver's vision in rainy conditions. The design of the body around the wheels dramatically reduces spray, improving visibility and safety in the rain.

"Given the extensive aerodynamic data that we now have about the DeltaWing car, we believe that a 4 cylinder turbocharged engine with approximately 300 - 350 horsepower will meet the performance requirements of the IZOD IndyCar Series for the 2012 chassis, doing so with only half the fuel consumption of today's car. This is the engine design and displacement direction that the entire automobile industry is pursuing and we think it makes our car's performance very relevant to the general public," said Dan Partel, CEO of DeltaWing LLC.

Visit www.deltawingracing.com for additional information and to follow progress on the design and development of the concept

A News Release from DeltaWing

[Juarez Jed]

Looks like someone was worried that the Deltawing was falling from favour.
Improved wet weather visibility and 350 horsepower are hardly going to get the masses into a frenzy of excitement are they ?

[JagtechOhio]

This is more Delta show biz: the test model was the one they showed at Chicago, which was cut out of a single block of foam. No body seams or other actual vehicle details. The test was filmed for a TV show.

No mention was made of any modifications that Bowlby had speculated on, so the final shape will be exactly as tested...or will be modified, and require a test which makes this one of questionable significance.

None of the other details are news. We now know that the tires can spin, but on the concept model they couldn't turn. That's about it, so far as I can tell.

I'd have to look it up, but I thought current fuel consumption was 3.5 MPG. So the Delta claim of 10 MPG has dropped. As if it matters.

[Purist]

MS, if Roger and Chip didn't care, they would have left completely for the greener acres of NASCAR ages ago, not looked back, and would be steamrolling on in the Sprint Cup Series as we speak, period!

Jag, the only way I could be that cynical is if I ceased to have the ability to trust in any other person on the face of this Earth, so I'm just going to remain optimistic about how the Delta Wing is progressing (thank you very much).

[JagtechOhio]

Here’s another scenario, just for fun. Ford Duratec was on my first list, which is one of the existing platforms that has already undergone some racing development. Check this out:

“Ford has unveiled the Fiesta rally car for the Monster World Rally Team.
While details are limited, Ford stated the car is “based on the race-winning European Rallycross Fiesta prepared by Olsbergs Motorsports Evolution.” Power comes from a turbocharged 2.0-liter Duratec engine which is capable of producing over 490 hp.”

OK, we’d have to ask Mr. Olsburg to show up in the dyno room with a bit more power, but a rally engine is not a hand grenade.

Guess who drove that car in 2009?

Indy 500 winner Kenny Brack. At the X Games.

So how about the X Games rally fans finding out that the same engine will be debuting at the Indianapolis 500 in 2011? Would they watch?