Interesting Item on New Chassis in Indy Star (Merged)

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Purist

MS, if Roger and Chip didn't care, they would have left completely for the greener acres of NASCAR ages ago, not looked back, and would be steamrolling on in the Sprint Cup Series as we speak, period!

Jag, the only way I could be that cynical is if I ceased to have the ability to trust in any other person on the face of this Earth, so I'm just going to remain optimistic about how the Delta Wing is progressing (thank you very much).

Didn't say they didn't care at all. What I did say was they only care about what is best for them personally, especially in the short term and everything that they do is about their interests, lining their pockets, collecting silverware and pumping their ego. And as a whole with similar other thinking guys is what kept CART from presenting a strong united front to stop tony george from his asinine plans for open wheel racing destruction. Remember it was CART owners that sold new found irl teams in late 1995 a bunch of cars to make the irl happen for 1996.

They are not the guys to "save the sport". In fact they have already demonstrated that quite well over the past 15 years. I cannot be bothered to recite their years of their motor racing history nor do I care to debate specific points, but it's out there if people want to do their research. Over the past 10 years I have got to talk to people that worked for both of those guys at the highest levels and I am sure that has framed a lot of my viewpoints about those two.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

So how about the X Games rally fans finding out that the same engine will be debuting at the Indianapolis 500 in 2011? Would they watch?

Yeah dude if you put some jumps in and some dirt down! Wicked!

Most of the hoody and cap askew crowd thinks of indycar as a grandpa sport if they even think about it at all.

[JagtechOhio]

There you go then Purist, perhaps your faith will be rewarded with the most non-traditional competition vehicle ever designed, fitted with the type of engine you have so much disdain for. In a spec series, to boot.

[Purist]

And there you go, Jag, putting words in my mouth. All I actually did say is I would like to see the program progress. It would be quite intriguing to see this machine turn some actual laps; would you not agree?

I made no mention of having that chassis as the future Indy Car, or of it being the sole future chassis. Neither did I make any mention of the engines. And yes, something in my DNA demands that full-body, auditory shockwave experience, which I can't see the those little four-bangers having the percussive punch to actually provide.

So, MS, would you care to be constructive and give a couple of names of guys you DO trust if they were put at the helm?

[JagtechOhio]

My mistake for reading your wall paper, I guess.

You seemed to make alot of noise about the engine in post #512.

The Delta Wing is a concept vehicle, not a race car. Any purist would be loathe to disagree. If it is selected, it will be at the expense of all other competing chassis for cost/volume considerations and safety incompatability factors.

What the end result of a brilliant design exercise yeilds is not my interest, I'm an IndyCar fan. And my view of the Delta is complimentary when compared with that of one of the competing constructors, who last night called it "dangerous".

[JagtechOhio]

That's cool Star, it beats dodging potholes.

If Olsbergs Motorsports Evolution thinks building motors for Indy is a joke too, then I'll deserve another of your cartoon shows.

Another builder expressed their interest today, that's three so far. He's one that even you have heard of. The Sweedish dude was news to me, guess I'll have to buy a hoody and start watching the X Games.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Purist

So, MS, would you care to be constructive and give a couple of names of guys you DO trust if they were put at the helm?

Sure, who do I trust? Ummm.... Me.

I'd have to think about it and seriously these days, only when I come on here do I give over a few brain cells to thinking at all about indycar anymore. Open wheel used to be a great interest of mine, but life moves on, so no I don't have a ready shortlist of names to throw out. And I'd suspect quite a few of the most qualified would not want to touch indycar with a 10 ft pole. Trying to unravel the backwards goopy burned turd tony george left behind is going to be a thankless task and most smart guys can garner more success elsewhere in the industry without the heartburn.

I think if one was to search for a good team of people, probably what I would look for is people that recognize the previous positive aspects of open wheel and then with some forward thinking apply that to move ahead. I really feel one aspect is that the hulmangeorges need to clear out and focus on being track owners because whatever they did, DID NOT work. I'd look for people that can LEAD, ORGANIZE, MANAGE and MARKET.

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

Here’s another scenario, just for fun. Ford Duratec was on my first list, which is one of the existing platforms that has already undergone some racing development. Check this out:

“Ford has unveiled the Fiesta rally car for the Monster World Rally Team.
While details are limited, Ford stated the car is “based on the race-winning European Rallycross Fiesta prepared by Olsbergs Motorsports Evolution.” Power comes from a turbocharged 2.0-liter Duratec engine which is capable of producing over 490 hp.”

OK, we’d have to ask Mr. Olsburg to show up in the dyno room with a bit more power, but a rally engine is not a hand grenade.

Guess who drove that car in 2009?

Indy 500 winner Kenny Brack. At the X Games.

So how about the X Games rally fans finding out that the same engine will be debuting at the Indianapolis 500 in 2011? Would they watch?

If they put a Subie turbo flat 4 in a car, I've got about 100K potential fans on another site, and you could probably double that.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

That's cool Star, it beats dodging potholes.

If Olsbergs Motorsports Evolution thinks building motors for Indy is a joke too, then I'll deserve another of your cartoon shows.

Another builder expressed their interest today, that's three so far. He's one that even you have heard of. The Sweedish dude was news to me, guess I'll have to buy a hoody and start watching the X Games.

Yep all you need is a soul patch, some hair dye, a cap askew at a wicked angle, some DC shoes and a hoody and a can of monster and you'll fit right in.

Srsly the X Games is where it's at now. indycar is old news.

[JagtechOhio]

Rip me up dude, I got No Fear.

It's like this: if the X Games rally winner is a fire breathing Ford turbo, and the driver or builder says to the assembled tokers, "We're gonna run this motor at the 500 and kick some a$$", a few of them might notice.

That's all. I'm not claiming a socio-economic migration of inter-generational consumer acceptance on a global scale. Got it?

[JagtechOhio]

Thanks for that, claus.

How about a link, or asking around over there for me?

The goal is 575 HP on ethanol, 2,000 miles minimum service life at Wide Open Throttle.

Hero, or blammo?

Before the Delta came out, when they published the general specs, the WRX-Ti motor was the first one that came to mind. They got the memo, and Chip even mentioned Subaru once in an interview in Feb., but nothing since.

I think the block can handle the load, but the question with any of these motors will be bullet-proof reliability. There are people who already have been down some of these roads. Sometimes only 1/4 mile at a time, but with A LOT more power.

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

Thanks for that, claus.

How about a link, or asking around over there for me?

The goal is 575 HP on ethanol, 2,000 miles minimum service life at Wide Open Throttle.

Hero, or blammo?

Before the Delta came out, when they published the general specs, the WRX-Ti motor was the first one that came to mind. They got the memo, and Chip even mentioned Subaru once in an interview in Feb., but nothing since.

I think the block can handle the load, but the question with any of these motors will be bullet-proof reliability. There are people who already have been down some of these roads. Sometimes only 1/4 mile at a time, but with A LOT more power.

I was only partially serious, as the flat 4 is notorious for being thirsty. There isn't a ton of difference between it and a N/A V6. You'd have the Subaru fanbois though, so stock up on your Monsters and grab a flatbill cap. I don't think Izod would be to happy when DC shows up.


Who knows? Block at Indy? He could be as good as Milka.

But I'll ask around. Maybe Marshall Pruett might know something, he's over there sometimes.

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Yep all you need is a soul patch, some hair dye, a cap askew at a wicked angle, some DC shoes and a hoody and a can of monster and you'll fit right in.



Srsly the X Games is where it's at now. indycar is old news.

Whoops, I guess that conversation has already been run through

[JagtechOhio]

I read Pruett's bio and some of his articles, and thought he was cool.

So he got the plan in January when Miller did. Not a word back from either of them.

Just found this:

"The previous Cosworth-operated Subaru models have produced in excess of 415 horsepower. Rumors are rife that the new STI shall have something close to the 500 hp mark to boost its ‘truly staggering’ claim. More specifications and pricing shall become available closer to the car’s launch date in March."

It's a street car.

http://www.nitrobahn.com/conceptz/au...va-motor-show/

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

I really feel one aspect is that the hulmangeorges need to clear out and focus on being track owners because whatever they did, DID NOT work. I'd look for people that can LEAD, ORGANIZE, MANAGE and MARKET.

The only people who seem remotely capable of that are Messrs. Ganassi and Penske. If they were to quit tomorrow, the the IRL edifice would come crashing down and there would be no one to rebuild it. I'm beginning to think they really want to see the end of the IRL and are just biding their time, until the Indianapolis Centennial Era is out of the way and after the 2011 race they'll announce the new series starting in 2012 and the start of another wonderful 100 years of Indy Car racing.

[Jimmy Magnusson]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

Here’s another scenario, just for fun. Ford Duratec was on my first list, which is one of the existing platforms that has already undergone some racing development. Check this out:

“Ford has unveiled the Fiesta rally car for the Monster World Rally Team.
While details are limited, Ford stated the car is “based on the race-winning European Rallycross Fiesta prepared by Olsbergs Motorsports Evolution.” Power comes from a turbocharged 2.0-liter Duratec engine which is capable of producing over 490 hp.”

OK, we’d have to ask Mr. Olsburg to show up in the dyno room with a bit more power, but a rally engine is not a hand grenade.

Guess who drove that car in 2009?

Indy 500 winner Kenny Brack. At the X Games.

So how about the X Games rally fans finding out that the same engine will be debuting at the Indianapolis 500 in 2011? Would they watch?

To fill you in on Mr. Olsberg he's pretty motorsport mad, and it's not restricted to rally cross - he's sponsored cars in Carrera Cup, touring cars, F3 and now in GP2, sponsoring young F1 aspirant Marcus Ericsson (mentored and managed by one K. Brack). His main business outside of racing is making hydrualic systems.

[JagtechOhio]

Thanks Jimmy, much appreciated. Does he speak English, or can you translate well?

[Jimmy Magnusson]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

Thanks Jimmy, much appreciated. Does he speak English, or can you translate well?

Mr. Olsberg (Göran Henriksson - Olsberg is now Henriksson, as Porsche is Piech)? Can't imagine anything else, though you should probably rather talk to Andreas Eriksson, who is the head (and founder) of Olsbergs MSE, or engine man Tomas Stenlund.

[ptclaus98]

What about a rotary?

[JagtechOhio]

Thanks Jimmy, I'll try them in English then.

[JagtechOhio]

800 HP out of a 2.0 Ford Duratec for the Pike's Peak hill climb rally car.

That doesn't suck.

[djb]

not for 11 or 12 mins anyway........

(to compare an apple to a spade, or to call an orange or orange-----oh you know what I mean)

[JagtechOhio]

Your point is well taken, although you'd have to agree that engine is good for more than one pass.

When I started working on this in January, here were my numbers:

Dallara/ Honda 1565 lbs, 630 HP
Dallara/ four cylinder turbo, 550 HP, equivalent power to weight ratio at 1366 lbs.

When Dallara released info about their new chassis in February, here's what they wrote:

Dallara's new chassis would feature narrower tires, less horsepower (a drop from 630 to 570) and a lighter design (1,390 pounds vs. the current model's 1,530 pounds). Apples to apples.

If you take an existing engine that is making 800 HP, and drop the boost pressure and the rev range down to limit the stresses it will see at 575 HP, it's reasonable to ASSUME that the reliabilty will be extended significantly.

Will it make power for a minimum of 2,000 miles at wide open throttle? That's a question for a four cylinder turbo engine builder. The two GM builders say yes. The AER engine is probably close to those parameters now ( 12 hours at Sebring).

We'll see what the Ford Duratec builder says. If you think that sounds like rotten fruit, I'll be happy to tell you the truth if the facts say you are correct.

Now, go back and look at Dallara's numbers. If you are pulling out a normally aspirated V8 and replacing it with a turbo V6 in your new chassis (or your old one, for that matter), how much are you reducing the weight?

How much can you decrease the capacity of the coolers , oil tank, etc? How much better is the fuel efficiency, so you can carry a lighter load?

They're talking about a car that is 140 lbs. lighter. I think they are talking about a car that is designed for a four cylinder turbo. That seems to be the only way you could remove such a significant percentage of the gross vehicle weight.

Or I'm wrong, and will be happy to admit it. In spades.

[djb]

Jag...first of all, I apologize, I was just being goofy and should have added a smiley thingee or whatsit to show I was being mostly tongue in cheek--and was playing with words, but then you did well too, rotten fruit, in spades....chuckle.

most importantly, all of your numbers examples (and this topic in general) seem to show that there are real world options that can work in a new type of car. In fact the most interesting aspect of all this yakking is the diversity take on it, diff engines, diff chassis, diff fuel strategies etc, that could make for some interesting racing.
As I have said in the past, I am just a couch race watcher with no tech background whatsoever, but would really like to see some real world changes that bring back guys trying out diff things, and get folks caught up again in N.Amercan open wheeled racing, especially with the idea of diff engine manufacturers getting into the fray with not-uber expensive engines combined with Joe Regular seeing the Subaru vs the whatever battles engine wise.

In any case, always interesting for me to read the points you and others bring up, these ones included.

cheers

[JagtechOhio]

To djb:

Thanks for that, I took it as skepticism and not insult, which is REALLY important...especially from every person who is "just a couch race watcher with no tech background whatsoever".

I think a very small percentage of the people who need to be watching are into the tech aspects. The point that you could see the value of introducing variety to increase your enjoyment of the racing, that's the golden part.

People's expectations aren't complicated, it's figuring out how to find the complicated ways to make it simply entertaining!

If I had turned the races on last year and enjoyed them, none of this would have been a big deal to me. What sucks is that it has been so hard to get feedback, and I thank you for yours.

[Tim Northcutt]

Just Released By The IRL:

The Advisory Panel for the New Package:

• Brian Barnhart: As president of competition and racing operations for the sanctioning Indy Racing League, Barnhart is responsible for development, innovation, safety development and implementation, medical, officials, technical specifications, event logistics and is an IZOD IndyCar Series representative on the board of directors of ACCUS, the U.S. representative to the FIA. Prior to joining the Indy Racing League, Barnhart served in various mechanical roles on Indy car race teams from 1982-94, including Galles Racing, Penske Racing and Patrick Racing and worked with legendary drivers A.J. Foyt, Al Unser Jr. and Emerson Fittipaldi.

• Gil de Ferran: The 2003 Indianapolis 500 winner served as sporting director for the Honda Racing Formula One team. He formed de Ferran Motorsports in 2008 to compete in the American Le Mans Series as a driver/owner and now in the IZOD IndyCar Series through a partnership with Luczo Dragon Racing. De Ferran, who competed in CART/Champ Car and the IZOD IndyCar Series, became known as the "professor" because of his reputation as a technically astute driver. His technical feedback abilities and engineering background earned him vital development roles with all the major manufacturers instrumental in his career. De Ferran was elected to the advisory committee by his fellow team owners, while all other representatives were appointed.

• Tony Purnell: Purnell is the former team principal of the Jaguar Racing Formula One team as well as a former Technical Consultant to the FIA. He is the founder of Pi Research. By the late 1990s, Purnell had built the company into a highly successful global electronics business. In 1999, the company was purchased by the Ford Motor Company and Purnell was appointed to head Ford's Premiere Performance Division, a role that was followed by his senior positions in Formula One. Purnell is a visiting professor at Cambridge University's Engineering Department.

• Eddie Gossage: As a top promoter in sports, Gossage has made Texas Motor Speedway one of racing's premier venues. He was named vice president of the speedway in 1995 and charged with building the 158,000-seat complex located in the nation's fifth largest media market, Dallas/Fort Worth. He was named president of the facility in February of 2004. Gossage has promoted 20 IZOD IndyCar Series races at Texas Motor Speedway and was named the Indy Racing League's "Promoter of the Year" in 2001. Prior to his tenure at Texas, Gossage served as vice president of public relations at Charlotte Motor Speedway and manager of the motorsports division of Miller Brewing, overseeing its NASCAR, Indy car, sports cars and drag racing programs.

• Neil Ressler: A former chairman of Jaguar Racing in Formula One, Ressler served various roles at the Ford Motor Company during his tenure, including senior research scientist, principal design engineer in the Suspension and Steering Division and director of quality and product systems before taking charge of core product development. Eventually he was named head of advanced vehicle technology, looking at the future development of the automobile. Ressler served as vice president and chief technical officer of research and vehicle technology with responsibilities for Advanced Vehicle Technology, Scientific Research and Environmental and Safety Engineering.

• Tony Cotman: A two-time Indianapolis 500-winning team member, Cotman served as team manager for Team Green in CART in 1998, winning 11 races in three years. In 2001, he was promoted to vice president of racing operations, guiding a three-car program for Team Green and eventually a four-car program when the team became Andretti Green Racing and moved to the IZOD IndyCar Series. From 2005-07, Cotman served as vice president of operations and race director for the Champ Car World Series, where he oversaw the implementation of a new chassis. He served as the Indy Racing League's vice president of competition until 2009 before leaving to form NZR Consulting, focusing on race circuit design, safety and management. He continues to serve as a member of the FIA circuits commission and is still active in the league as race director for Firestone Indy Lights.

• Rick Long: Beginning with the 1973 Indianapolis 500 in support of the Turbo Offy program, Long has been involved in the development of high-performance racing engines. His experience extends to the Turbo Cosworth, Judd and Turbo Buick engines used in Indy car competition. In 1996, Long and Herb Porter founded Speedway Engine Development, Inc. (SEDI), which served as the OEM builder for GM's Chevy and Buick engines in the IZOD IndyCar Series, controlling the selection of internal components as well as the tolerances used during assembly. Through a proactive program of applied development, dynamometer testing, and trackside support, the SEDI team "fine tuned" the engine to achieve the maximum potential for performance and reliability. Today, SEDI is the sole builder and supplier of engines to Firestone Indy Lights and also supports the engine programs of several USAC Sprint, Silver Crown and World of Outlaw teams.

There Ya Go....I like that Rick Long is on there...Long-Time engine builder in OW...Knows how to get performance without costing an arm and a leg.

Eddie Gossage is also a good pick, as is Cottman...

Let's see what they come up with at the end of the game...