Jason Plato, wrong or right

[Greem]

The fact that we, the self-proclaimed "enthusiasts", are *still* having this discussion almost two weeks after the incident that sparked the thread shows only that the entire subject is immensely subjective.

I know people who will defend the antics of F1 drivers (such as Schumacher's push on Barrichello) to their dying breath, and I know others who will simultaneously view it the other way.
I know people who are fans of a specific football team who will rarely, if ever, admit that their team gained an advantage by (for example) someone committing a professional foul; likewise, people who are rabidly convinced that the same team gains an advantage from the officials at every single match (regardless of the reality).
I know NASCAR fans who hated it the "have at it, boys" announcement, and I also know NASCAR fans who thought it the greatest thing ever.
I know a very large number of "proper" BTCC fans, including those of Plato, and even they were split roughly 50/50 over whether or not Plato's move was simply "optimistic" or "dangerous and he should have been penalised more heavily". An awful lot of them are also what you would describe as "enthusiasts" using the descriptions up-thread.

There is no "right answer", unfortunately. We are where we are, it is what it is. Wouldn't it be nice if we could be having this discussion over a pint?

[davyboy]

In response to Peter's and some other points raised... I'm still of the belief that things are different today compared to years gone by. Outside of single seaters, the bash to pass is not viewed upon in the same way as it was years ago. Yes the Blue Book may decry it, but penalties arising from it seem inconsistent at best.

... and it's not just the BTCC. As I said earlier, it's rife in the most popular branch of our sport - kart racing. You also see it practised in saloon and sportscar/GT racing, rallycross etc... The viewing audience, whether at home on TV, or at the events themselves come to expect it.

That's why I stand by my comment above that large numbers of those viewing and participating throughout our sport accept this behaviour and as a consequence it's either mildly unpunished or not punished at all.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by davyboy

In response to Peter's and some other points raised... I'm still of the belief that things are different today compared to years gone by. Outside of single seaters, the bash to pass is not viewed upon in the same way as it was years ago. Yes the Blue Book may decry it, but penalties arising from it seem inconsistent at best.

... and it's not just the BTCC. As I said earlier, it's rife in the most popular branch of our sport - kart racing. You also see it practised in saloon and sportscar/GT racing, rallycross etc... The viewing audience, whether at home on TV, or at the events themselves come to expect it.

That's why I stand by my comment above that large numbers of those viewing and participating throughout our sport accept this behaviour and as a consequence it's either mildly unpunished or not punished at all.

Yes and things move on, but finally if the rules say you can't do it and these are not discretionary then you can't do it. If however it becomes permissible, I can see some very expensive law suits being applied and disclaimers and exclusion clauses won't be enough of a defence.

I also agree that viewed narrowly the poll question is specifically about an incident, but to take that view dismisses the entire ethos of the BTCC which would be and is absurd.

I rest my case.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Yes and things move on, but finally if the rules say you can't do it and these are not discretionary then you can't do it. If however it becomes permissible, I can see some very expensive law suits being applied and disclaimers and exclusion clauses won't be enough of a defence.

I also agree that viewed narrowly the poll question is specifically about an incident, but to take that view dismisses the entire ethos of the BTCC which would be and is absurd.

I rest my case.

I guess this boils down to the difference between 'the law' and the 'application of the law'.

[johngee]

I'm 100% with Peter on this whole question. Just a small personal anecdote from a boring old man who has been a 'qualified' enthusiast since the early '60s. I was given guest tickets to a BTCC round about 18 months ago and was accompanied by another but recently qualified clerk of the course, who is a generation younger than myself, who amongst other things, goes to Le Mans every year and is herself, a huge 'enthusiast' (Peter knows who she is ). At 3 in the afternoon she turned to me and said "Why are we watching this? ...... and we left and 'went down the pub'
It probably means nothing but it was interesting to get the perspective from a younger generation.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by johngee

I'm 100% with Peter on this whole question. Just a small personal anecdote from a boring old man who has been a 'qualified' enthusiast since the early '60s. I was given guest tickets to a BTCC round about 18 months ago and was accompanied by another but recently qualified clerk of the course, who is a generation younger than myself, who amongst other things, goes to Le Mans every year and is herself, a huge 'enthusiast' (Peter knows who she is ). At 3 in the afternoon she turned to me and said "Why are we watching this? ...... and we left and 'went down the pub'
It probably means nothing but it was interesting to get the perspective from a younger generation.

But the other 30,000 or so paying punters stayed. I'm only playing devil's advocate here, but you'd have to question who the real enthusiasts there that day were

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by Greem

There is no "right answer", unfortunately. We are where we are, it is what it is. Wouldn't it be nice if we could be having this discussion over a pint?

I believe there is a right answer but I also concur that a pint would be a better way of discussing this and other issues. (I have just cracked a Duvel BTW).

Nonetheless it has been an interesting debate so far and yes John, I do know the person in quaestion.

Originally Posted by davyboy

But the other 30,000 or so paying punters stayed. I'm only playing devil's advocate here, but you'd have to question who the real enthusiasts there that day were

No you'd have to admit that there are racing enthusiasts and BTCC enthusiasts.

[johngee]

I take your point davyboy and to put the 'free ticket' thing in perspective, I was actually given the tickets as a 'thank you' for the many days of time that I had 'given' the circuits in question and as a clerk of the course, contrary to a misheld belief, we don't get paid for what we do.
There's no malice in my reply by the way - just setting the record straight.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by johngee

I take your point davyboy and to put the 'free ticket' thing in perspective, I was actually given the tickets as a 'thank you' for the many days of time that I had 'given' the circuits in question and as a clerk of the course, contrary to a misheld belief, we don't get paid for what we do.
There's no malice in my reply by the way - just setting the record straight.

Sounds like one for Watchdog I think... a gross misrepresentation of the term 'motor sport'

[johngee]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Sounds like one for Watchdog I think... a gross misrepresentation of the term 'motor sport'

Perhaps it comes down to whether you fancy Ann Robinson or Riz Lateef ..... but we're now soooo far off topic, we'd better stop here!

[slummingangel]

but doesn't the fact that Plato features in the poll skew the poll's result. With many people thinking Plato can do no wrong or can do no right they will vote accordingly and not on the incident itself.

[SteveLevin]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

I concur, the levels of safety have, to an extent, reduced the risk and thus increased the ability to survive big crashes. And also the other point concerning club racers is also valid.

But, both points miss the crux of the matter which is the non-contact element of the sport. Yes, go faster, yes, take greater risks, but where does that equate to punting others off, or in actual fact, the professional foul?

I agree that total punting is wrong, and have said that what Plato did to Newsham was flat out wrong. You have to have at least a hint of a chance, and that move, in my mind, was never on.

OTOH, the nudging/rubbing/love massage that was used on Jordan, I thought that was within the arc of acceptability. The aggressive driving goes both ways -- drivers now will slam the door much more aggressively as much as drivers are much more aggressive about passing

Steve

[codename_47]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Lol, to put it bluntly; the majority of BTCC enthusiasts at these events, may not be genuine "motorsport" enthusiasts. And I'm sure you understand me perfectly.

I don't like this attitude...as motorsport fans we're enough of a minority as it is, there's no need to suddenly divide ourselves based on some fictional "true fan" list

The fact is, these people had taken time out of their lives and money out of their wallets to go to a track and watch motorsport-for a meeting that has great TV coverage too.
That's enough of a "genuine" motorsport enthusiast in my book.

Earlier in this thread someone referred to two camps on this forum, and I see this a lot here.
However, I'd label the two camps as "those who are a dedicated fan of their own particular minor niche of Motor Racing and turn their nose up at anything that moves towards mass popularity" and "those who are genuine fans of all forms of racing, big or small, and are more open minded to whatever is put in front of them"

The BTCC gets such a bad rap on this forum and the genuine snobbery about it has put me off posting here for a very long time tbh.

The fact is the series has a higher percentage of side by side racing than nearly any other series you can think of, and yes, that results in a higher percentage of accidents, that's simple statistics, not some sort of conspiracy to stage crashes for Neanderthal viewers.
To focus solely on the crashes is to decry a great series imo.
Heck during its troubles it was consigned to Motors TV ten years ago and yet it has managed to drag itself kicking and screaming from that obscurity to a somewhat-mainstream channel. It must be doing something right eh?

I just wish people would get over themselves when it comes to the BTCC, its like people enjoy queueing up to try to give it a kicking.

I also think a lot of it comes from the round being at Brands Indy, its really just a horrid track for passing in any series, far too easy for the car in front to defend the inside line without any opportunity for the car behind to cross over and pass, so its no surprise it results in frustration after a good few laps of that...(though that's still not an excuse to butcher it, Mr Palmer!)

Lets hope for some more good racing with less chance for moaning this weekend at Donington!

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by codename_47

I don't like this attitude...as motorsport fans we're enough of a minority as it is, there's no need to suddenly divide ourselves based on some fictional "true fan" list

Guilty as charged. If people really think that the BTCC represents motorsport then they are IMO deluded. As has been said, even by its supporters, it is entertainment. And as such you either find yourself entertained or not.

I'm sorry if people think that they can't post on here because of the opinions of others, but that is what a discussion forum is about.

[Greem]

Originally Posted by codename_47

Earlier in this thread someone referred to two camps on this forum, and I see this a lot here.
However, I'd label the two camps as "those who are a dedicated fan of their own particular minor niche of Motor Racing and turn their nose up at anything that moves towards mass popularity" and "those who are genuine fans of all forms of racing, big or small, and are more open minded to whatever is put in front of them"

There's a third - those who are dedicated fans of one or two major types of widely covered motorsport who rarely if ever consider that other forms exist.

Any entrenched views from any "faction" are likely to result in the snobbery you refer to. Look at the Other Forum Used By BTCC fans for a really clear demonstration of that!

Like I previously said there is no one right answer to this. Can't we just accept that?

I love the hurly burly and buzz of BTCC events just as much as I love the camaraderie of a clubbie, just as much as I love the atmosphere of a historic or vintage meeting. That puts me in a very small minority!

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

As has been said, even by its supporters, it is entertainment. And as such you either find yourself entertained or not.

All Motorsport is entertainment and nothing more than that.

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by davyboy

All Motorsport is entertainment and nothing more than that.

maybe missing the point; entertainment for whom?
Motor racing (any sport) is for the 'entertainment' of the competitor, any aspect of entertainment for a watcher is purely a by-product.
Once an activity is manipulated in favour of being entertainment for the watchers then it ceases to be sport and becomes a stage show.
That is why people who think like competitors don't like the BTCC.

[nicanary]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

maybe missing the point; entertainment for whom?
Motor racing (any sport) is for the 'entertainment' of the competitor, any aspect of entertainment for a watcher is purely a by-product.
Once an activity is manipulated in favour of being entertainment for the watchers then it ceases to be sport and becomes a stage show.
That is why people who think like competitors don't like the BTCC.

Bravo! Why don't they go to Alton Towers (other theme parks are available) if they just want thrills and spills?

[barnettracing]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

maybe missing the point; entertainment for whom?
Motor racing (any sport) is for the 'entertainment' of the competitor, any aspect of entertainment for a watcher is purely a by-product.
Once an activity is manipulated in favour of being entertainment for the watchers then it ceases to be sport and becomes a stage show.
That is why people who think like competitors don't like the BTCC.

This. As an analogy, Premier League footballers play football because it is entertaining for them. It is a by-product that 250,000 turn up to the stadiums nearly every weekend.

At the very bottom, club racing is there for the competitors and that is how all motorsport started, for enthusiasts of the sport.

[Tom Bee]

Originally Posted by davyboy

All Motorsport is entertainment and nothing more than that.

I found the Plato and Newsham incident very unentertaining. I would of much preferred to see a battle for the lead over the next few laps, but that was never going to happen with Plato involved was it!

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

Once an activity is manipulated in favour of being entertainment for the watchers then it ceases to be sport and becomes a stage show.

An interesting paradox is that, for me at least, club racing is much more entertaining than comedy events like BTCC.

I suppose that makes me a "purist", which some posters in this thread have used as a pejorative; I take it as a compliment!

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

maybe missing the point; entertainment for whom?
Motor racing (any sport) is for the 'entertainment' of the competitor, any aspect of entertainment for a watcher is purely a by-product.
Once an activity is manipulated in favour of being entertainment for the watchers then it ceases to be sport and becomes a stage show.
That is why people who think like competitors don't like the BTCC.

No, I'm not missing the point at all here. Motorsport is entertainment for both competitor and spectator. It's always been that way. Over time, many aspects of the sport have been tweaked to make them more exciting for the competitor and/or the spectator. The difference between a sport and a stage show is the predictability of the outcome. And in the case of BTCC it's most definitely not a stage show. Oh, and by the way, there'll be 24 people who think like competitors lining up on the BTCC grid tomorrow... and loving every minute of it.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

An interesting paradox is that, for me at least, club racing is much more entertaining than comedy events like BTCC.

Whoa... pretty heavy there. The BTCC is widely acknowledged as Britain's premier racing series, does it follow that motorsport in this country's headlined by a joke ?

[johngee]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Oh, and by the way, there'll be 24 people who think like competitors lining up on the BTCC grid tomorrow... and loving every minute of it.

Likewise and despite my earlier comments, I'll be glued to the television coverage ........ if only so that we can have a further good natured debate next week.

[nicanary]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Whoa... pretty heavy there. The BTCC is widely acknowledged as Britain's premier racing series, does it follow that motorsport in this country's headlined by a joke ?

Premier? If it is, why aren't the big-gun TV companies all fighting for the rights to televise it?
ITV4 aint big-league.
I consider it just another race series.(I don't know much about british stock-car racing, but I believe contact is only allowed in the banger races, which are effectively demolition derbies).