Jason Plato, wrong or right

[Thaw Daggerslash]

Originally Posted by barnettracing

So you thought Plato's move on Jordan in Race 3 was fair? You think it is quite right of him to put over half his car on the grass and push (front bumper to rear bumper) the Civic off the apex of the corner when there wasn't a gap there? I'm sorry, but if you want to see cars pushed out the way then we are no longer racing. It's the same as a professional foul in rugby or football where a player's progress is deliberately impeded.

Yes. I do. He didn't push him onto the grass, it was a small tap into the back bumper to nudge him wide. Good luck finding any touring car driver who DOESN'T do that. He didn't spin him out, he didn't push him into the gravel, they both continued, so I didn't see a problem with it.

As I said earlier - no doubt it'd be the case that if drivers were penalised for that type of thing, people would start complaining about how there was hardly any overtaking or action in BTCC anymore. Look at WTCC and DTM - a lot of people complain they're boring because they don't have as much action as BTCC.

[nicanary]

It was a small tap to force him wide -that's cheating.

If the new-comer spectators like this stuff, they're going to expect it in every race on the card. We don't need people like that .

(Clint Dempsey always scores against the canaries)

[barnettracing]

Originally Posted by Thaw Daggerslash

Yes. I do. He didn't push him onto the grass, it was a small tap into the back bumper to nudge him wide. Good luck finding any touring car driver who DOESN'T do that. He didn't spin him out, he didn't push him into the gravel, they both continued, so I didn't see a problem with it.

As I said earlier - no doubt it'd be the case that if drivers were penalised for that type of thing, people would start complaining about how there was hardly any overtaking or action in BTCC anymore. Look at WTCC and DTM - a lot of people complain they're boring because they don't have as much action as BTCC.

We're obviously not going to agree on this. As Nicanary says, that is cheating. It's a 'professional foul'.

(He scores with his left, he scores with his right. That boy Clint Dempsey makes Torres look ****e!)

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by Thaw Daggerslash

Equally, I find it quite ridiculous that any, or all contact now seems to go punished in motorsport. Look at F1 - how many penalties have been given out for racing incidents? I accept of course that motorsport is supposed to be a non-contact sport - but being heavy handed with penalties is not the way forward. Again - it could be prevented if none of them took part at all - so what are you effectively saying by being heavy handed with penalties? As you rightly point out, contact is inevitable in racing - sometimes nobody is at fault. I maintain that the only time a penalty should be given out is if another driver/marshal/whoever has been put in real danger. That is not the case for a bit of nudging into the back of another car's bumper. Half the time it doesn't even scratch the paintwork.

You just don't get it, do you? Motor sport, specifically circuit rcing, is not "supposed to be" a non-contact sport, it is a non-contact sport. I can only speak for myself, but I'm sure everybody involved in the sport would accept that some contact is inevitable but what is totally unacceptable is deliberate contact with the intent to gain advantage; as others have said, that is cheating - nothing more, nothing less. I don't know where you get this idea that all contact is being punished. However, if contact results in damage to a car or an innocent driver being taken out of a race through the negligence of another driver do you think the offending party should not be brought to book for his actions?

"Heavy-handed" punishment? Not in my experience. Don't forget that the whole object of the exercise is safety; maybe you'd like the odd driver killed or maimed in the cause of entertainment? Only by penalising bad driving will the sport be kept in check; contrary to what you appear to think good, clean, close & exciting racing is possible & is much more satisfying for everybody involved. You've never gone to a crash involving an innocent driver who's ruefully looked at his badly-damaged car & said "well, that's my season (or even my racing career!) over", have you?

Where do you draw the line - when does a "nudge" become a "push" & a "push" become dangerous driving?

No need to reply to this - it will be my last post in this thread as I've said all I need to say.

[MarkG]

Originally Posted by Thaw Daggerslash

Yes. I do. He didn't push him onto the grass, it was a small tap into the back bumper to nudge him wide. Good luck finding any touring car driver who DOESN'T do that. He didn't spin him out, he didn't push him into the gravel, they both continued, so I didn't see a problem with it.

As I said earlier - no doubt it'd be the case that if drivers were penalised for that type of thing, people would start complaining about how there was hardly any overtaking or action in BTCC anymore. Look at WTCC and DTM - a lot of people complain they're boring because they don't have as much action as BTCC.

Can't belive I'm reading this twaddle. Are you a Plato relative?

You said in an earlier post about contact in touring cars.. we all know and accept that, and we all know it has gone on for years.. a biff into a rear bumper should be the limit though..What is NOT acceptable is deliberately tapping the rear corner of the car ahead to gain a place. That isn't skillfull driving, it's just plain dirty driving and any monkey can do it.

[pauln]

Originally Posted by Thaw Daggerslash

it was a small tap into the back bumper to nudge him wide. Good luck finding any touring car driver who DOESN'T do that. BTCC.

Which is deliberate contact, made with intent. As such, clearly against the rules. Saying "they all do it" is not a good argument. I think it is incorrect anyway.

Yes, in touring cars there is always the chance of an element of contact while in the act of passing - "rubbing doorhandles" if you like, but that's not going to end the race for one of the drivers. A deliberate boot up the rear quarter to get someone out of the way is not good racing.

It's perfectly possible to have exciting racing without resorting to NASCAR tactics.

[nicanary]

It has been mentioned that all the nudging started back in the 80s, and I can't help but agree.This was back when all the major manufacturers were involved, and there was a lot of pressure to succeed.

Before that, in "my" era, there was simply a lot of door-rubbing, but the spectators still loved it, abd no-one got hurt.I'm talking Roy Salvadori here, who was renowned as a hard driver. He went handle to handle with anyone, but it wasn't dirty and it wasn't cheating. Ditto the Minis, ditto the midfield of Harper/Hutcheson/Blydenstein.

You don't have to have today's "stock-car racing" to involve the crowd and keep them entertained.I will maintain to my dying day that the answer is a more standard spec. - you can't beat squealing tyres and heeling bodywork.

If the BTCC needs to be advertised by lurid behaviour, then they need to contact S.Cowell who'll find them plenty of chavs to support these monkeys.

[MarkG]

Also, even though I felt sorry for Newsham being taken out (he ruffled a few egotistical feathers at Brands I suspect) I believe he got it wrong in the Druids incident with Collard. He tried to close the gap down when it was too late and therefore compromised his own exit from the corner. If he had "paralleled" round the corner with Collard he might have retained the lead.

just realised, off-topic.. sorry

[Craner Curves]

I'd love to hear what Dave Brodie thinks of all this.

[nicanary]

Originally Posted by Craner Curves

I'd love to hear what Dave Brodie thinks of all this.

Can't see who's driving your Lotus-Cortina, but I was thinking, can you imagine Jim Clark "doing a Plato".

No...thought not. (Sorry about another boring soccer analogy, but it's like those defenders who pull shirts or wrestle in the penalty area - they have to do it because they're not good enough. Never saw Beckenbauer or Moore doing it.)

[Tom Bee]

Originally Posted by MarkG

Also, even though I felt sorry for Newsham being taken out (he ruffled a few egotistical feathers at Brands I suspect) I believe he got it wrong in the Druids incident with Collard. He tried to close the gap down when it was too late and therefore compromised his own exit from the corner. If he had "paralleled" round the corner with Collard he might have retained the lead.

just realised, off-topic.. sorry

Totally agree that Newsham was in the wrong, he left it too late. Collard was already up the inside when he tried to block him.

Can't belive I'm reading this twaddle. Are you a Plato relative?
I like this, i find it amazing that people are even voting in favor of Plato!

[SteveLevin]

When it comes to contact, one thing to keep in mind is that having fenders works both ways. That is, not only do they work for the guy behind, but they work for the fellow in front, who can be a bit more aggressive about slamming the door shut, or gaming the guy behind by intentionally going through a corner slower when you see someone has a run on you, just to try and force them into a slightly awkward position. It doesn't have to be an all-out "swing from edge to edge of the track" block to be effective

Steve

[GT6]

come on the reason we all love the btcc is that it is full of close racing and little nudges are part of that, please let the drivers race and keep the officials looking at serious incidents rather that the things like this that make the racing fun to watch

[Thaw Daggerslash]

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

You just don't get it, do you? Motor sport, specifically circuit rcing, is not "supposed to be" a non-contact sport, it is a non-contact sport. I can only speak for myself, but I'm sure everybody involved in the sport would accept that some contact is inevitable but what is totally unacceptable is deliberate contact with the intent to gain advantage; as others have said, that is cheating - nothing more, nothing less. I don't know where you get this idea that all contact is being punished. However, if contact results in damage to a car or an innocent driver being taken out of a race through the negligence of another driver do you think the offending party should not be brought to book for his actions?

"Heavy-handed" punishment? Not in my experience. Don't forget that the whole object of the exercise is safety; maybe you'd like the odd driver killed or maimed in the cause of entertainment? Only by penalising bad driving will the sport be kept in check; contrary to what you appear to think good, clean, close & exciting racing is possible & is much more satisfying for everybody involved. You've never gone to a crash involving an innocent driver who's ruefully looked at his badly-damaged car & said "well, that's my season (or even my racing career!) over", have you?

Where do you draw the line - when does a "nudge" become a "push" & a "push" become dangerous driving?

No need to reply to this - it will be my last post in this thread as I've said all I need to say.

YOU don't get it, do you?

Look - all I'm saying is that you've got to get real. Find me a touring car championship or driver around the world that doesn't resort to this type of racing. You won't find one. So why, every time, without fail, is BTCC always thrown the most criticism?

Shock horror, contact in touring car racing! How terrible...

What I was saying earlier is that penalties discourages drivers from having a go. If you start dishing out penalties all over the place for things that have happened in touring car racing for year, you're going to make the show worse. Okay, I'll admit that sometimes things can go over the top in touring car racing - I am not saying it is perfect. But I'm glad a lot of you are not in charge of the BTCC, because I fear that if penalties did start to be given out, you'd discourage drivers from having a go. I'd rather see what we have now rather than have a steward's inquiry in every race over something. This is motor racing after all, not motor sit-in-a-court-room-and-discuss-every-incident.

There's a difference between touring car rubbing and bumping to dangerous driving. They aren't idiots - I think even Jason Plato knows where to draw the line between that. There's a difference between nudging someone in the bumper and putting someone in the wall. I disagree with your believe that a nudge in the bumper is a professional foul - both cars continued, and there's a chance for the car to get back past, so what, exactly, is the problem? Okay, if it ends in someone getting punted off into the gravel ending their race, I agree, that is not fair.

Read what Andy Jordan put on Twitter following the race -

First proper close race in 5 seasons I've had with @jasonplato. Good close race. He was just that bit too quick to hold off. #rubbingsracing

He enjoyed his battle with Plato. He accepts that rubbing's racing. If that's the case, why should we be telling them what to do? Call him an idiot, call me an idiot for disagreeing if you want - but as I've said numerous times before, this is part and parcel of this type of racing. It is no worse now than it was before. It strikes me that a lot of single seater racing fans struggle to accept how touring car racing works. Again, I'll admit, it is not the purest form of racing ever, but so what?

I do not like to see accidents or people potentially getting hurt, I like clean racing, but I accept this is the type of racing you get in touring car racing. It is not everybody's cup of tea, so if that's the case for you, just don't watch it then.

Nobody's ever been injured in the nudging and nerfing of touring car racing, the fans and drivers have a good time, so what exactly is the problem here?

[Bramzel]

Originally Posted by GT6

come on the reason we all love the btcc is that it is full of close racing and little nudges are part of that, please let the drivers race and keep the officials looking at serious incidents rather that the things like this that make the racing fun to watch

When a driver passes because he's faster its fun. When a driver passes because he pushes the car ahead out of the way its annoying and unfair.

[Clive Brown]

I watched the BTCC broadcast at the weekend. I found the driving standards, not just in the BTCC rounds but also in some of the supporting races, to be absolutely appalling. Plato should have been disqualified from both the 1st and 3rd races for dangerous driving.

The whole programme was disfigured throughout by banging, ramming, and nudging. Does the Clerk of the Course only act when his guide dog barks?

[Greem]

Originally Posted by Thaw Daggerslash

Nobody's ever been injured in the nudging and nerfing of touring car racing

That's a bold, bold claim. I will leave it to others to take advantage of the gap you've just left, if you'll excuse the obvious pun...

[Retired]

Originally Posted by Thaw Daggerslash

YOU don't get it, do you?

Look - all I'm saying is that you've got to get real. Find me a touring car championship or driver around the world that doesn't resort to this type of racing. You won't find one. So why, every time, without fail, is BTCC always thrown the most criticism?

Shock horror, contact in touring car racing! How terrible...

What I was saying earlier is that penalties discourages drivers from having a go. If you start dishing out penalties all over the place for things that have happened in touring car racing for year, you're going to make the show worse. Okay, I'll admit that sometimes things can go over the top in touring car racing - I am not saying it is perfect. But I'm glad a lot of you are not in charge of the BTCC, because I fear that if penalties did start to be given out, you'd discourage drivers from having a go. I'd rather see what we have now rather than have a steward's inquiry in every race over something. This is motor racing after all, not motor sit-in-a-court-room-and-discuss-every-incident.

There's a difference between touring car rubbing and bumping to dangerous driving. They aren't idiots - I think even Jason Plato knows where to draw the line between that. There's a difference between nudging someone in the bumper and putting someone in the wall. I disagree with your believe that a nudge in the bumper is a professional foul - both cars continued, and there's a chance for the car to get back past, so what, exactly, is the problem? Okay, if it ends in someone getting punted off into the gravel ending their race, I agree, that is not fair.

Read what Andy Jordan put on Twitter following the race -



He enjoyed his battle with Plato. He accepts that rubbing's racing. If that's the case, why should we be telling them what to do? Call him an idiot, call me an idiot for disagreeing if you want - but as I've said numerous times before, this is part and parcel of this type of racing. It is no worse now than it was before. It strikes me that a lot of single seater racing fans struggle to accept how touring car racing works. Again, I'll admit, it is not the purest form of racing ever, but so what?

I do not like to see accidents or people potentially getting hurt, I like clean racing, but I accept this is the type of racing you get in touring car racing. It is not everybody's cup of tea, so if that's the case for you, just don't watch it then.

Nobody's ever been injured in the nudging and nerfing of touring car racing, the fans and drivers have a good time, so what exactly is the problem here?

If you don't like seeing accidents or potentially people getting hurt then I suggest YOU don't watch it. It is going to happen if we don't do something about it now. Plato must be stopped and the sooner the better. Did you see one of his interviews on ITV4? He said "rubbin's racing. It's happened before and it'll happen again". Inflammatory or what? The man is dangerous. By the way - Dave Brand has got it spot on. You should listen to him. Rant over.

[Clive Brown]

Originally Posted by Thaw Daggerslash

No-one's ever been injured in the nudging and nerfing of touring car racing

Kieth O'Dor

[johngee]

Originally Posted by barnettracing

Pushing people away from the corner to get through should be reserved for banger racing and the fairground, not an MSA British championship!

Well said and it sets an apalling example to the rest of the motorsport community who don't understand that this is just 'reality television entertainment'

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by GT6

come on the reason we all love the btcc is that it is full of close racing and little nudges are part of that, please let the drivers race and keep the officials looking at serious incidents rather that the things like this that make the racing fun to watch

Sorry, not all of us. Over the years I have become less interested in BTCC. Even if you do like it frankly the current drivers are rubbish at it. No subtlety, no charisma.

Of course real subtlety and charismatic racing comes from the clean pass. Which is dead as an art form. Wam bam! Aren't they clever? No, they come across as not having the talent to race properly.

My post is a little unsubtle too. For which I apologise. Dave Brand has, for me too, summed it up well.

[barnettracing]

[Minicross424]

Tell you what I think (it will never happen but here goes)
We should all club together and take out a full size or half size advert in the Motorsport News addressed to Mr Alan Gow and tell him just how hacked off we are regarding the driving standards in this and his supporting series.
As others have said on this thread what going to make it stop?
A serious injury? The death of a driver or god forbid a marshall?

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Sorry, not all of us. Over the years I have become less interested in BTCC.

+1

[Alfa Fan]

Originally Posted by Clive Brown

Kieth O'Dor

Where you actually aware of what happened in this incident or did you just google "fatal touring car accident"?

For the record, O'Dor lost control of his car on his own, no-one else involved, and was unfortunately collected in the middle of the track by Biela.

It's of no relevance to this discussion whatsoever. The videos are on youtube if anyone really wants to see.