Why have you stopped/cut down your Marshalling?

[Stoowert]

Point taken! How ever, if land line is used, it MIGHT speed all things up! The observer asked for a red as soon as the dust had settled but was overuled! It was the rescue unit that saved a blind CoC's butt!

[Novice]

Originally posted by Stoowert
The sight of a full field of Caterhams arriving at the scene of the accident at speed, with one car broadside accross the track and another, with driver still in situ, on the edge of the track was truly scary.

Were the drivers spoken to about this because no one slowed down and I noticed the lead car dive between the 2 stranded cars. A scarysight from post 2 so god knows what the guys at the scene felt.

This is not the first time and I doubt it will be the last time that flags have been ignored. Having said that the 2 incidents later in the day the drivers slowed completely as soon as they saw he yellow and black quartered out giving a wide berth to where incidents had happened.

[wiggles]

Originally posted by Novice
Were the drivers spoken to about this because no one slowed down and I noticed the lead car dive between the 2 stranded cars. A scarysight from post 2 so god knows what the guys at the scene felt.

Hmm... The cars did come round at a worryingly fast speed. The guy(s) from post 23 were on the scene the quickest but 22 + 10 (who had far more resources at their disposal) couldn't get to the incident until a full lap after it happened due to the speed of the cars and 'communication problems' between 22 and race control.

The poor Doctor was in the frustrating situation where he couldn't get to the stranded driver (who wasn't moving at all) as quickly as he would have liked to. Thankfully the driver was just a bit shell-shocked and brusied.

There was a lot of frustrated converstation on post 22 over lunch I can tell you.

On the positive side it was a good learning experience.

[EvilPumpkin]

I think this is a problem all over. I got extremely concerned yesterday when my IO was pushing a car at the side of the track and despite a steady yellow out at the preceding post and a VERY vigorously and visible waved yellow at our flag post (I was waving it!) some of the drivers were not backing off at all - and one little eejit even took the opportunity to do some overtaking.

In this particular situation, we put a report in and I believe action was taken. Perhaps some of our driver readers can explain the mentality of a person that does this - that car came within a foot of hitting a marshal - just to pick up a place in a non-championship race - and not even a podium place either.

*growl*

[brickkicker]

We all hear about drivers being spoken to. This is a load of rubbish. They may be told dont be a bad boy but thats it. If there was a ban or a big fine that followed this maybe they would stop. The problem is that the clerks are paid and chosen by the club (as I belive) and if they hand out a lot of fines in the season they more than likly wont be invited back next season as the drivers who pay money to the club will be leaning on them to get someone different. We all hear the club say they have been spoken to come on do they realy expect us to belive the next time the lights go green they wont do it again.

[EvilPumpkin]

Well in this particular case I have reason to believe that he was spoken to rather firmly - a lot of the organisers at this particular event are ex or active marshals themselves. I will also be having a quiet word with the class co-ordinator who is a good guy and very safety conscious. I do agree though that usually nothing is done. I think we've mentioned this in other threads, but I think that the idea of making a driver go out on the banks for an event when they do something like this is a good one. It gives them a first hand view of how close to the traffic we really are.

[Novice]

Originally posted by wiggles



The poor Doctor was in the frustrating situation where he couldn't get to the stranded driver (who wasn't moving at all) as quickly as he would have liked to. Thankfully the driver was just a bit shell-shocked and brusied.

Perhaps we should start getting the drivers that are being put at risk by the others stupidity, blindness, lack of knowledge of the flags to have words with the offending drivers. They may then take notice as it is coming from a fellow competitor and not from someone that is from race control or someone that is trying to maintain the safety og the guys and gals on the track. I am sure they would not like it if it was themselves stuck there with no help coming because of flag blindness on the part of other competitors.

[Woolley]

Returning to the Land line over all of these issues, then. Firstly, when the Red Flag is requested, everyone hears it. The adjacent posts would imediately confirm the situation, and Race Control would have to be very determined to overrule it. Secondly, the person who can make the decision is also on the headphones as a matter of course, and confrims the call as soon as it is heard. All posts hear the confirmation and the flag goes out instantly all around the circuit. Ditto Yellow/Black flags. The scource of confusion with the battenburg seems to be that the drivers don't really understand it, and the one way travel (reverse direction round the circuit) makes it unclear as to where it applies. With the landline system, it goes out everywhere simultaneously, and acts the same way as the yellow flag on an oval.
Thirdlt, where drivers fail to slow, or overtake under yellows, or misbehave in any way, it is instantly communicated to all posts, confirmed by any other posts who saw it, and the decision can be made instantly to black flag the driver. Believe me, that will encourage better behaviour, probably even by the end of the same meeting.
One thing I can guarantee with the land line, there is no situation that will be made worse as a result.
we must ask those who are supposed to represent us to push for its introduction.

[Stuart Hill]

For those of you who've not had the opportunity to use a Land-Line, (ala CART), the closest we have in this country is the open lines at Hillclimbs. (radio or phones). As Woolley has stated, EVERY post is aware of ALL calls and can either confirm, deny or pass comment as required.
Also, each post further up the hill is aware if a driver has had a moment and maybe currently driving under the "red-mist"!!!! It can make a big difference to your reaction times if you are ready for a fully-charged nutter to come hurtling round your blind bend!! :-)

There is only one problem that I can see of using Land-Lines on a circuit.........

The Clerk of Course would have to implicitly trust those of us with a headset and microphone and accept our close-up interpretation of something that, if there are lucky, have seen on tv or, if unlucky, have absolutely no idea about.

Those of you who attend Speed events know where I'm going with this..........

At Speed events...... Marshals close the hill and deal with the mess........... Clerks react to what has happened and attend if need be, NOT the other way round!!

[Stoowert]

Land Lines:
They are better than radios because they are secure from evesdroppers who might want to find out what is going on during an incident (the press) and a land line is cheaper! No batteries to recharge every night! When I tell our fellow marshals in USA/Canada about our phone system they cannot believe it...
Sunday's fracas at Clearways:
I was on 23. There was only one course marshal on our post. The only marshal on the inside outside the pits/posts 24 & 9. Thank God he knew what he was doing. I have reason to believe that the Clerk did realise his mistake in over-ruling his observer. He appologised later.
Crazy Stu:
If they don't trust us to make a reasoned, rational call, then shouldn't have given us the job in the first place! I do a few hill climbs etc. on the Isle of Man and you're right, things happen instantly, and if wrong, we accept the *******ing afterwards.

[Stuart Hill]

Stoowert, apologies later are of no use at all to the injured driver/marshal/rescue or whoever. We had this kind of argument at hillclimb over the past few years but eventually got the Clerks to try it our way, ie, if we shout "Emergency" it means just that!! We are not asking for the Clerk or anyone else to come and give a second opinion. At recent events, the Clerks have let us try it our way and have found out that the meeting is safer, more efficient, (more runs), and better attended by marshals. They have come to realise, as other Clerks at other hills already knew, that whilst our only concern is safety, we will not call for help unless it is needed but that if we do, we would like immediately!!

Many of the posters here have heard Speed event clerks addressing marshals briefings and most follow the same lines..........
They may disagree with what we've done and why but,...... at the instant, in front of anyone, they will back us up and only have a quiet word later!! That to me instills trust and gives even the newest rookie confidence in the system. This is what I feel seems to be missing from many circuit venues especially at the larger meetings.

Ooooopppss!!!! have I just answered my own thread?????????

[Bodysnatcher]

I agree with Stoowert's promotion of the land line system, a hard wired coms system is long overdue in the UK, and yes, it's usually a great advantage

however....

One thing I can guarantee with the land line, there is no situation that will be made worse as a result.

you'll not have done comms at the Canadian GP for a Formula Ford race in the wet then?

not worse, but certainly challenging

problem 1 ) - bilingual - Lynda in race control is a genius or a pure schizophrenic. Even a comms check becomes tricky when the preeceding post is something like "3 outside" and it's given rapidly in Quebecoise. As for understanding the finer details..

problem 2 ) - over reporting? - I don't think the traffic (on the headset) paused for more than a couple of seconds over the entire race. Did my nut in.

I was really glad to take that headset off.

[Stoowert]

I think you were a tad unlucky with the constant chatter. I did an ALMS at Portland. I was put on my own on the inside of turn 6. The Comms & other marshal (Short handed or what!) were on the outside. However there was a comms port on my side & they got me a "Listen Only" set. I was kept in the picture all the time and the 3hours just flew by. I also took my turn on comms at Road Atlanta during the Petite Le Mans weekend. If you can understand the "Good Old Boys" you can understand anyone! Except maybe the French!
Crazystu: It's not satisfactory, but every 1000 mile march starts with a single step!
We have the AGM for BMMC South-East region later this month. I'm going to advocate it becomes club policy to insist on the installation of land-lines at all curcuits. It may take some clubs a while to use them. "I remember we had phones at Brooklands"...

[paul.hickman]

'stoowert' - are you my old flamboyant flag waving bearded chappie from post 3 who rides a motorcycle - or do I need to apologise to you (or maybe him)?

[sss]

im still not convinced with the land line system, by the sounds of it you are relying on having enough people to able to man it, flags, incident etc as you are fixed to a comms point that means another bod for the job.great if your flush with marshals everytime. there are times when as 'the big cheese on the walkie talkie' you might be needed trackside as man power. but that would mean leaving the comms point, radios can be taken with you. you are still going to need a radio to talk to your mobile units, such as ambulances, recoverys etc. race director should be in direct control of all persons/units the easiest way is all on one channel. if everyone listens to there radio then all know about it.

as for scanners i dont use one but dont discourage there use, nothing that is of a sensitive nature should be sent over insecure methods anyway, and in a few years of racing i have never had to,a lot of marshals i know use them and keep in touch with whats happening. so the press hear whats going on if they choose to listen but what do they get to hear, nothing that the commentator isnt going to mention such as why is there a delay or what has crashed, by keeping certain things in the open, keeps people being professional.

[Woolley]

You should find fewer bods are necessary, not more. On several occasions I've done flags, which means you're observing as well. I can't manage waved yellow, ringing race control, writing an incident report and noting the overtaking under yellows as well. The next post doesn't know how much you did manage, so doesn't bother either because the two people in race control are probably busy too.

On land line, you press a button to talk while waving, reporting what you see while flagging. The adjacent posts know what you missed, so back up where necessary. Job done. Because you've got headsets and a rally type mike system, you can hear, and be heard. I don't know how many radio systems you can say that about. Also if you're reporting something, but something more urgent crops up, the second caller isn't blanked out as on a radio.

OK, its a change, and discipline is required, but I would have been sceptical too if I hadn't used it. Now I'm convinced.

[Chris Y]

I think there's a bit of confusion here (certainly in my brain ) as to what a 'landline' is.

SSS seems to think it's the old telephone system, as did I, but Woolley is describing a system of headsets that are permanently connected to each other and race control. Sort of like a radio system, but with wires, and when you press the 'send' button, it doesn't stop you receiving..

If I was a marshal, I'd be dubious about using the old telephone system, as you do have to have someone 'manning' it, but this idea of headsets sounds much better.

[sss]

but the person using it it still contected to a comms port and one fixed point

[Flagman]

You also need to consider the 'other end' of the line whether it is a landline or the more normal phone.

With a pnone system it is possible to handle more than one conversation at a time ( providing you have enough Mrs Flagman clones ) - Not sure how that would work with a landline system if adjacent posts are reporting as well as the primary post.

Remember that each (significant) message sent to race control is supposed to be written up in the race log.

I guess it would need quite good discipline, something Mrs Flagman reckons is very lacking in some Observers....

[Bodysnatcher]

Originally posted by sss
but the person using it it still contected to a comms port and one fixed point

Quite noticably so. At the ALMS race at Laguna when Enge's Ferrari 550 came off on fire, the poor sod trying to put it out with his wee extinguisher was the comms guy.
Looking closely you could see he'd reached the end of the cable, but not, of course, the fire.

Bit of an undermanning problem there then...

but he should at least have been able to give a damn accurate assesment to race control.

[Flagman]

...he'd reached the end of the cable...

Donington would probably only give each post 2' of cable anyway if the length of the telephone cord is anything to go by.

Contender for funniest marshalling moment - Colin Cragg trying to report an incident at Donington

[Stoowert]

Mr Hickman: Yes, it is the phantom flag-abuser of Post 2!
Right, try this for a senario:
"Post 22 to control, we have a 2 car collision and 1 car is imobile and the second car is on the inside of track & we can't get to it! Request Doctor, rescue and race stop."
"Control, Doctor & rescue scramble. post 22. All points, red flag now!"
"Post 23 to control, we have marshal responding. Driver in car on inside not moving!"
"Control, thank you post 23, Post 22, any change?"

That might not be axactly how it happens, but the speed of getting information from the post to race control and out to various points cannot be underestimated. Only 3 people have been involved in it too, thus freeing others to carry out back-up tasks in race control & trackside.
If the comms chappie was the only person on post, why? That person should have insisted on some company! I've done loads of races in the US from CART down to local regionals and I have never done a post on my own.
Another related topic that springs to mind. Why do we have write reports for EVERY incident, however small? In the US (Again!) all lineline calls are logged and timed. The only time a written report is required is when it's a bit contentous and could result in a transfer of funds out of a driver's pocket or a major shunt, and this will be requested by race control at the time of the incident. Spun & continues and various other minor calls stay just as calls. This saves untold time writing reports rather than observing! Plus the saving of paper could save the clubs millions over a year!
There, I've said it!

[Bodysnatcher]

I did'nt say he was on his own Stoowert, (and gawd, how could you be anybody other than the phantom phlag phlinger from 2). Maybe I implied it...

The comms guy tackled the fire on his own ( & v funny it was too, as he was pulled up short.), but help could be seen slowly puffing into sight.

Anyway, keep banging the drum Stu, maybe we will get American style systems introduced here. Thanks for reminding me about the lack of paperwork, bliss isn't it. As for the race log, I though most of the big US places just taped the comms loop traffic for later transcription if required.

[Stoowert]

Dear Mr Snatcher, Yes! I'm going on a full offensive to drag British marshalling & race control into the 20th century (from the 19th, that is!) I think the "Reports for everything" thing is a left-over from the days when there was more than 1 observer per post. On the ALMS front, I made a mistake and read my message. In it I said I was on my own on the inside of turn 6...Oh well!

[paul.hickman]

Stoowert - maybe you are post 2 nowadays but you certainly used to share my gravel bed at 3!!

To matters of the post - to my knowledge you were one of the first to cross the pond to marshal. Having read your posts I tend to agree with all you say.

1. Why do I have to write everything I report? - Minor stuff is logged at race control - writing takes my concentration from the track - and if a 'written' is required it can be supplied later based on my 'original notes' as passed to r/c.

2. Radios (etc) v. land line. Give me a radio everytime - I can both position myself where I want to be and have full view of the situation/circuit at all times. How many times have I been speaking on the phone (particularly in the Brands post 3 cabin) when other incidents have occurred - sound effects I have but no vision! Proper radio management needs training - but as we have seen at Goodwood and Thruxton (and maybe elsewhere), with a good controller and experience, observers get used to a disciplined approach.