[Team] HRT - The Discussion Thread.

[E.B]

Well, I dont think anyone was 100% sure they would survive for too long in a world (F1) that revolves around money, given their well document financial problems through the year, not to mention their policy of $$$ behind a driver being more important than any talent.

Certainly the writing was on the wall once their alleged / proposed association with Toyota was canned for non payment of money owed. Given the word that Dallara had pulled out for the same reason and that Cosworth had not been paid in full it was looking a bit of a doomed hope rather than a team looking to build on a difficult first year.

The struggling HRT team is up for sale despite the new investment of former Telefonica boss Juan Villalonga, according to Spanish sports newspaper AS.

Although Villalonga's investment had led to talks with potential investors no deals have been made and, as a result, "Jose Ramon Carabante and his equity partners have put up the team for sale".

Having parted company with partner Toyota Motorsport, HRT has now been left with "no car, no base, no drivers, no sponsors - only a Cosworth engine."

Reverting back to the 2010 Dallara-designed car would make drivers the victim of the new 107 per cent qualifying rule, leaving the team in an even worse state of affairs than in 2010......

Full story HERE

I guess that would see Senna out of F1 (in race seat terms anyway)

If the news is confirmed will they find a buyer? What would a buyer get? There are no premises or staff to my knowledge, with the team using Colin Kolles base and resources. I am sure any in house work on a 2011 car is merely an update to the Dallara chassis from last season.

Lots of questions and thoughts really. The main one would be whether we will see only 22 cars? If the team does not sell will they even appear? If they do sell, who would be in the market for what may only be an entry ticket.

Discuss.....

[Peter Mallett]

Hopefully this will spell the end of Kolles in motorsport. I dislike the man intently.

[Simonfield]

might as well chuck it out there,... Stefan GP anyone ... joke.

in all seriousness, sa said below the writing was on the wall from Day one, it is a shame, but does it open the door for someone to buy the team and maybe try and get the Toyota deal back on the table?

At this late stage it seems like the only option, otherwise i cant see how anyone can step forward from where they are now.

what about the teams that put in to be the 14th team earlier on in the year?

[Super Hans]

Good riddance.

Terrible team, and at four-five seconds off the pace, a massive pain in the arse. A shame for Chandhok, Senna and Klien, but if there were enough seats for every half-decent driver you wouldn't be able to see the tarmac for cars.

[E.B]

Originally Posted by Simonfield

......does it open the door for someone to buy the team and maybe try and get the Toyota deal back on the table?

At this late stage it seems like the only option, otherwise i cant see how anyone can step forward from where they are now.

what about the teams that put in to be the 14th team earlier on in the year?

The FIA said that none of the applicants this year met the needs list to compete at the pinnacle level, and that no new teams would be offered a place. That was back when Bernie was calling the new teams parasites though, so maybe.....

Of course if a buyer was found for what is in effect an entry with little else could something happen?

Hopefully HRT have not run up a bill with their Williams technical alliance.... Williams have enough financial strife of their own without having to bear the debts of others.

Beyond an entry licence as I mentioned previously, with no Car, No Premises, No staff (other than Kolles and Co), No Drivers and No sponsors, what would they be buying? It would need someone with access to a car (Toyota's chassis springs to mind) However, with Toyota in the last week confirming their involvement in LMS as an engine provider will that have any effect on interest from Toyota in furthering that? I know they now see their F1 future as one of consultancy and a solver of engineering / technical problems.....

Whether they are up for assisting a new buyer in what is, at this stage for sure a major problem solving need given the gaps in what HRT will be offering in their 'Complete' Team Sale......

[ECW Dan Selby]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Hopefully this will spell the end of Kolles in motorsport. I dislike the man intently.

Me too. Been nothing but a characterless suite. Good riddance

Shame for the rest of the team, of course. Gotta say I wasn't massively impressed with Senna this season as some of you know, but any team shutting down is a shame for F1 and its potential young drivers.

Selby

[E.B]

I guess that puts any hopes Klien had of reviving his career on hold.

De La Rosa can probably stop looking for the 10+ million Euros he had been offered a seat there for.

[medler]

Anybody up to start a whipround, 10-Tenths F1?

No problem with staffing as there are plenty of experts on running race teams on this forum.

[ECW Dan Selby]

Funny cos it's true

Selby

[Sodemo]

Should have chosen Prodrive...

[strider]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Hopefully this will spell the end of Kolles in motorsport. I dislike the man intently.

Ditto. Intensely even.

[Wims]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

Should have chosen Prodrive...

Prodrive didnt show up the first time they got invited and they werent even capable of developing a proper contender for the WRC in their final years there. What makes you think they would have any sort of chance in F1?

[tblincoe]

Why does everyone hate Kolles so much? Is it because he's a dentist?

The guy isn't even on my radar to really care either way...

[strider]

No, I believe he's quite a good dentist, but I know a couple of people who have worked for him and I doubt if they could muster a single good word about him between them.

[ensign14]

Originally Posted by Super Hans

Good riddance.

Terrible team, and at four-five seconds off the pace, a massive pain in the arse.

I look at it the other way. They were four-five seconds off the pace with maybe a tenth of the budget of the biggest teams and rookie drivers. Quite impressive...think, for example, of Life, Kauhsen, Zakspeed, EuroBrun...and how about the team in 1981 that had something like twenty DNQs before making a race? They went on to be world champions.

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by Wims

Prodrive didnt show up the first time they got invited and they werent even capable of developing a proper contender for the WRC in their final years there. What makes you think they would have any sort of chance in F1?

The difference being that Prodrive are a proven professional race team, with a track record of success in a variety of formulae. HRT were a team cobbled together at the 11th hour, with zero motorsport history or success, shakey finances and a car fit for the dump.

The reason why they didn't show up in 2008 was because the FIA failed to clarify rules on customer cars. Prodrive's whole bid was on the basis that they would run customer McLaren's. I believe Williams threatened legal action or something, but anyway, it was too late, and Prodrive had to back out.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

The reason why they didn't show up in 2008 was because the FIA failed to clarify rules on customer cars. Prodrive's whole bid was on the basis that they would run customer McLaren's. I believe Williams threatened legal action or something, but anyway, it was too late, and Prodrive had to back out.

And the reason they didn't show up after that is because the pulling of the budget cap rules and the banning of customer chassis made F1 not quite so easy a proposition as it might have been. No way will David Richards even be pondering a return to F1 at the moment.

As it stands, if the team named HRT bows out, that's it! No more new teams for 2011.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Super Hans

Good riddance.

Terrible team, and at four-five seconds off the pace, a massive pain in the arse. A shame for Chandhok, Senna and Klien, but if there were enough seats for every half-decent driver you wouldn't be able to see the tarmac for cars.

Which is why I have argued for some time that the whole entry thing is a farce. It has created an artificial barrier for anyone wanting to set up a team and now we have poorly chosen applicants folding because of ridiculous rules.

It should be a free for all.
\If someone wants to use a customer chassis and can buy or be sold a competitive one they should be able to roll up and race. If they qualify in the top 24 or 26 and are within a 107% rule (if you think you need one-I am not so sure) you can race. One car or two...
Back to the days of the late 80's and 90's when we had 32 cars turning up to qualify...maybe. But it would be far more interesting than what we have now.

[Marbot]

I can see why William's put a stop to it when you think that they spent millions upon millions on their chassis evolutions and then someone like Prodrive rolls up on the grid in front of them with a brand spanking McLaren chassis. Where's the hard work in that?

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Marbot

I can see why William's put a stop to it when you think that they spent millions upon millions on their chassis evolutions and then someone like Prodrive rolls up on the grid in front of them with a brand spanking McLaren chassis. Where's the hard work in that?

Are you saying that Williams, a renowned chassis builder, is not up to the task of competing head to head with other chassis builders in the spirit of competition?

Are you suggesting that chassis builders should be in a protected position and be able to have a guaranteed place on the grid and the resulting income even if they are unble to produce and enter a car that is not as quick as another entrant, even if that entrant purchased his off another builder?

Are you suggesting a competitive team like Mclaren would actually sell the current evolution to a customer team or sell them last years model?

If you look back at the days of F2 when F1 teams built cars for customers in lower formula and also ran a works team the works team always seemed to have an advantage. There was no limit though on someone coming in and building a better car, but they had to be organised.

When we had no restriction on entrants in F1 we had people falling over themselves to ge into the sport and had prequalifying 20 years ago. A team like Mike Earles Onyx team managed to actually score points in its first two seasons by finishing in a top 6 position on more than one occasion. There is nothing wrong with competition. the team was sold and mismanged but they were an inspiration.

Running this 'closed shop' for established teams smacks of despotism, a group of highly priviledged people living an entirely artificial life in a goldfish bowl that no one else can swim in.

As for those who would sneer at the start up teams, they were once start up teams that started and failed a number of times before they made the grade. Had the people who were in the box seats when they started had the same attitude towards them in their early days they wouldn't be where they are now.

If F1 is dull and uninspiring it is because it has become a closed shop, closed itself off to new blood and has grown old, tired, and anemic.
Bernies vision may have been to have had 10 manufacturer teams all competing for gold medals in some sort of automative olympics but that is never going to work.

What Bernie and the FIA have done is the same as someone trying to start a spec formula. they feel the need to control everything all the time and make up a plethora of regulation to control everything, and ultimately close it off to anyone else so their little world becomes an island no one can land on without their permission.
Thats what F1 has become and an increasing number of people are walking away from. The heady days of the 90's had 30+ entries and a heap of new teams some of which failed, others weren't so good, but the cream rose to the top, and it was entertaining watching the gladiators battle it out.

Now its like a travelling troupe of aged gladiators pretending its like the old days but they are living yesterdays action in modern clothes pretending its the same. Its not the same and long time enthusiasts know what they are watching is something that has become a parody of what it once was.

F1 needs to open itself up to the world outside F1 and become real again if it is ever going to become an inspirational sport again.
Otherwise its just a tired old professional circus with the same old clowns and the same old scripts we have all seen before. Thats why there are fewer bums on seats at traditional venues. We have seen it all before. Its all old hat.

[Jamesy-18]

Least suprising story of the new season (I count the new season from when the last race ends).

To be honest, they never deserved their place on the grid. I feel bad for the situation they've been in, but talk about making a mountain over a molehill! For sure they've made things a lot more difficult than they needed to be - they made Minardi looked like a well polished outfit this season.

To be honest, I'm more bothered about quality rather than quantity. If we lose HRT but it means the grid is closer, that's fine by me.

Hopefully the likes of Senna and Chandhok can talk about what a terrible time it was there openly now!

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

Are you saying that Williams, a renowned chassis builder, is not up to the task of competing head to head with other chassis builders in the spirit of competition?

I don't think that they mind going head to head with another team that actually designed and built the car. They do mind going head to head with a team that didn't.

Originally Posted by Teretonga

Are you suggesting that chassis builders should be in a protected position and be able to have a guaranteed place on the grid and the resulting income even if they are unble to produce and enter a car that is not as quick as another entrant, even if that entrant purchased his off another builder?

I would suggest that a chassis builder be allowed to stay on the grid as long as they build their own car and can get it to qualify within the 107% target. At the moment you cannot purchase a chassis from another constructor.

Originally Posted by Teretonga

Are you suggesting a competitive team like Mclaren would actually sell the current evolution to a customer team or sell them last years model?

Depending upon the regulations (always seem to be changing) they may have no choice.

[Sodemo]

Even if HRT sold their entry, no team could design a car in time for the 2011 season now. So best case scenario is that someone comes along and buys their entry, then tries to aquire the 2010 Toyota cars. Worst case; team folds.

[Matador]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

Even if HRT sold their entry, no team could design a car in time for the 2011 season now. So best case scenario is that someone comes along and buys their entry, then tries to aquire the 2010 Toyota cars. Worst case; team folds.

Any takers?

One thing I wonder, IIRC, Bernie/ax claimed that Cosworth needed 4 teams to be able to make their engine manuacture commercially viable. As it stands, they will only have two; Williams and Virgin (pretty sure anybody buying Toyota's cars would just take the easier route and use the 2 year supply of engines they have sitting in Cologne).

So, what gives?

[E.B]

That is if Toyota, given their new role as engine supplier to LMP1 teams in the Le Mans series, feel that way inclined. Having said that at this stage it is only supplying Rebellion Racing, but I am sure that others might come along with the knowledge Toyota are in the Le Mans engine supply game.