Interesting Item on New Chassis in Indy Star (Merged)

[Mr Pink]

Originally Posted by jonm2

MS, I think most of us understand how you feel about Indycar in it's current form, some may agree, some may disagree. However, what is this radical change you speak of?

And for what it's worth, whilst it is clear that things could be a lot lot better, there was still a full field for most races last year, over 26 cars for some races, and of course bumping at Indy. I really don't believe that by the start of 2011 that is suddenly going to drop to 15 or 16.

Yeah, the situation for next year is not much different from this or last year so I can't see why the numbers would suddenly drop.

Even if the involvement from Chevy won't directly put any money in the pockets of other team owners than Penske, shurely it's a sign that the "new IRL" acctualy is an attracting package? This isn't charity what Chevy is doing and if they think there's marketing value to future Indy Car I prefer to be optimistic and hope that other companies think the same and jump onboard later on.

I look forward to seeing what happens in 2012 and beyond!

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

In any case for me, it doesn't change anything until the sport is free from the shackles of the hulmangeorges and also for me regardless of them, this new formula is rather uninteresting. I have a hard time believing all the sudden you are going to have huge audience numbers that demand to see this dallara lump run by a bunch of pay drivers.

If yesterday's announcement was anything to go by, the Hullman-Georges were fairly margionalised, the guy who did the opening presentation had a bit of difficulty finding our mate Tony amongst the assembled throng and looking at those assembled on the dais, not one of the Hullman-Georges ws there; I think that says quite a bit.

[JagtechOhio]

The greatest benefit is to the RACING, which will now lack the predicatability that a spec series has yielded. Two new engine designs competing for supremacy: that reintroduces variables of reliability, torque curves, fuel mileage, weight distribution, slightly different aero requirements.

All are relatively minor, but all are contributing factors to shuffling the deck and creating the potential for better competition and new faces on the podium.

Improving the racing will make a much greater difference in attracting fans than any promotional programs can achieve. But there is a better opportunity to see benefits from that change as well.

If Penske is the one to profit the most from this new landscape, big deal. The landscape looked pretty barren without it, and additional changes are made more possible by Chevy's participation. Green green green.

Pink, I had a chance to meet Mr. Eriksson and the Olsbergs boys last week. Thanks again for putting me in contact with them.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

If yesterday's announcement was anything to go by, the Hullman-Georges were fairly margionalised, the guy who did the opening presentation had a bit of difficulty finding our mate Tony amongst the assembled throng and looking at those assembled on the dais, not one of the Hullman-Georges ws there; I think that says quite a bit.

They are still lurking in the background and own the whole jalopy and there have been rumors of a sale since 2008. I think when the old matriarch dies it will happen as there are quite a few people in the trust that just want their money and couldn't give 2 craps in the south china sea about the speedway.

It's the average rise and fall of a wealthy family.

Starts with one patriarch laying the foundation, the next generation taking the reins and really building on it into a mega wealthy family, the next generation starting to fight, the next clueless and disinterested and by the last generation off in different directions with diminished wealth and influence.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

The greatest benefit is to the RACING, which will now lack the predicatability that a spec series has yielded. Two new engine designs competing for supremacy: that reintroduces variables of reliability, torque curves, fuel mileage, weight distribution, slightly different aero requirements.

All are relatively minor, but all are contributing factors to shuffling the deck and creating the potential for better competition and new faces on the podium.

Improving the racing will make a much greater difference in attracting fans than any promotional programs can achieve. But there is a better opportunity to see benefits from that change as well.

If Penske is the one to profit the most from this new landscape, big deal. The landscape looked pretty barren without it, and additional changes are made more possible by Chevy's participation. Green green green.

Pink, I had a chance to meet Mr. Eriksson and the Olsbergs boys last week. Thanks again for putting me in contact with them.

I'd agree 2 is better than one, but better RACING, no guarantee of that until that car is actually built and tracked.

[mountainstar]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/88196

So I was right. Ilmor was losing business and had spare capacity. Ilmor wants to keep people employed so finds chevy willing to do a small deal to slap the name on the valve covers and maybe buy some tv commercials.

Hard to see what was gained here after all. It's like me holding 2 quarters, someone taking one then handing it back to me as though it is some great present that I now have 50 cents again.

[JagtechOhio]

"small deal"

There's no way it will take less than $20M to do this small deal, and that's without the promotional support after the fact.

What was gained is the opportunity for improved competition on the track, Penske staying commited to IndyCar, brand association with a second auto manufacturer, and the second most influential team owner turning his back on the Delta wing concept as a competing series.

If you don't call that a good day, it's because you want the whole deal to collapse. If you want the whole deal to collapse, you're content with Nascar, ALMS and Grand Am as racing in America. Because there is no guarantee that another open wheel series would rise from the ashes.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Being a share holder in Ilmor, our Roger's got a vested interest in keeping Ilmor busy.

[Roninho]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/88196

So I was right. Ilmor was losing business and had spare capacity. Ilmor wants to keep people employed so finds chevy willing to do a small deal to slap the name on the valve covers and maybe buy some tv commercials.

Hard to see what was gained here after all. It's like me holding 2 quarters, someone taking one then handing it back to me as though it is some great present that I now have 50 cents again.

Maybe it is hard to see because you do not want to see it....?

Chevy will make sure that this effort is well funded, because they know that if it isn't they will get blown away by Honda (and whoever may join the serie). These guys are not going to enter anything on the cheap just to save a buck or 2, their brand value is way to important for them.

I have been very critical of indycar's business, and stilll am, but no way this can be spinned into something negative for Indycar, how bad you might want it to be.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Roninho

Chevy will make sure that this effort is well funded, because they know that if it isn't they will get blown away by Honda (and whoever may join the serie). These guys are not going to enter anything on the cheap just to save a buck or 2, their brand value is way to important for them.

That is a very good point. The last thing Chevy want to do is look like chumps.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Roninho

Maybe it is hard to see because you do not want to see it....?

Chevy will make sure that this effort is well funded, because they know that if it isn't they will get blown away by Honda (and whoever may join the serie). These guys are not going to enter anything on the cheap just to save a buck or 2, their brand value is way to important for them.

I have been very critical of indycar's business, and stilll am, but no way this can be spinned into something negative for Indycar, how bad you might want it to be.

Didn't say they would not spend enough to have a competitive engine, that isn't the issue. The issue is the teams need revenue to survive and prosper and they need it now, not in 2016.

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

"small deal"

There's no way it will take less than $20M to do this small deal, and that's without the promotional support after the fact.

What was gained is the opportunity for improved competition on the track, Penske staying commited to IndyCar, brand association with a second auto manufacturer, and the second most influential team owner turning his back on the Delta wing concept as a competing series.

If you don't call that a good day, it's because you want the whole deal to collapse. If you want the whole deal to collapse, you're content with Nascar, ALMS and Grand Am as racing in America. Because there is no guarantee that another open wheel series would rise from the ashes.

That's exactly what he wants, though. He cares more about being right than having open wheel in America.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by ptclaus98

That's exactly what he wants, though. He cares more about being right than having open wheel in America.

Oh I have always been clear what I want for the 7 years that I have been around here. I'm not a sycophant that just follows the party line or accepts something just because every other lemming is going over the cliff. I don't agree with what the hulmangeorge people did to the sport. I don't agree with what is going on now.

Other than that I am a very passionate open wheel fan, but will not support their ownership or reward them in any way.

I think your statement just goes to show your mentality which is accept second best because you and others are fearful and that you'd rather have slop than nothing at all. I don't accept that, clearly others do and that is there choice, but I don't.

What I have found in my 8-9 years on forums is that a lot of people don't like debate and take it personally if their ideas are challenged. To me the point of a forum is about debate and ideas. The focus really should not be on me, but on the ideas and opinions and really if your ideas are so good you would not have to seg-way towards attacking the poster, but rather win the debate on ideas and craft a convincing opinion or back it up with some thoughtful analysis.

[JagtechOhio]

That's an interesting position to read, and one which mischaracterizes everyone who posts on this forum in my opinion.

I doubt that anyone here is content with a second rate IndyCar Series. The stereotypes you use might be fitting for some of the very few IRL/IMS koolaid drinkers who still remain, but it's puzzling why you look here for targets. Try Trackforum.

My opinion was formed in 2009 when I turned on the TV and watched second-rate slop. That prompted questions about how a competitive and entertaining product could be constructed from the few remaining assets that existed.

And often, when posting an idea or opinion, the need arose to segue into a defense from the subjective criticism of individuals who have their minds already made up.

I don't see any more Atlantic, a Lights series which has few redeeming qualities, and ladder series which are trying to morph into little league Lights as they continue to contract. Pretty sloppy.

So if you want to watch big league open wheel racing in the U.S., you have two choices. Wait for IndyCar to fail, and hope that investment and interest arises from nowhere to create a new series...or hope that the remnants of CART, Champcar, and the IRL can be utilized to construct a good product from the assets they have to work with.

And they just got one more.

[johntt]

Rumour is that Alfa Romeo may want to do a deal with Cosworth to get in on the series.

[JagtechOhio]

John, that rumor is flying hot and heavy here too. We should know more by next Friday's groundbreaking for the Dallara factory.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

That's an interesting position to read, and one which mischaracterizes everyone who posts on this forum in my opinion.

I doubt that anyone here is content with a second rate IndyCar Series. The stereotypes you use might be fitting for some of the very few IRL/IMS koolaid drinkers who still remain, but it's puzzling why you look here for targets. Try Trackforum.

My opinion was formed in 2009 when I turned on the TV and watched second-rate slop. That prompted questions about how a competitive and entertaining product could be constructed from the few remaining assets that existed.

And often, when posting an idea or opinion, the need arose to segue into a defense from the subjective criticism of individuals who have their minds already made up.

I don't see any more Atlantic, a Lights series which has few redeeming qualities, and ladder series which are trying to morph into little league Lights as they continue to contract. Pretty sloppy.

So if you want to watch big league open wheel racing in the U.S., you have two choices. Wait for IndyCar to fail, and hope that investment and interest arises from nowhere to create a new series...or hope that the remnants of CART, Champcar, and the IRL can be utilized to construct a good product from the assets they have to work with.

And they just got one more.

Somedays you just want to stick your head in a blender.

What I say is that if the shoe fits, it fits, I'm only responding to santaclaus98 and his worrying about me, rather than just debating the issues. I'm not looking for "targets" and I don't care who you are or what you do, I'm only interested in good debate.

No one knows the future and things can change quite rapidly, so don't count those chickens yet.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by johntt

Rumour is that Alfa Romeo may want to do a deal with Cosworth to get in on the series.

Cosworth to design an engine for Alfa?

[JagtechOhio]

Throw enough chickens in the blender, and you never know what might come out. I was wrong though, the groundbreaking will be Tuesday. That is also the next "deadline" for engine submissions, which was previously Oct. 2.

[Roninho]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Didn't say they would not spend enough to have a competitive engine, that isn't the issue. The issue is the teams need revenue to survive and prosper and they need it now, not in 2016.

You weren't talking about the team-prosperity in 2011. You specifically said it was hard to see what was gained by Chevy entering the serie, and that it was a small deal. Nothing about car counts in 2011 (which is a completely different issue).

It will not be a small deal (unless tens of millions of dollars in a couple of years is small off course), and the serie will get extra revenue, the tv-networks get extra revenue out of commercials, teams will get chevy funding, events will get extra promotion and everyone involved looking for sponsors gets an extra selling point (a big name manufacturerer is involved in the serie). The only possible negative item might be that the OEM's increase the costs to compete with their 'war', but there seem to be cost-containment rules for this.

We can discuss the car count for 2011 (which i don't see why they would be substantially lower then in 2010, because really what has changed negatively so that there will be less then cars?), but again that was not what you were referring to.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Roninho

You weren't talking about the team-prosperity in 2011. You specifically said it was hard to see what was gained by Chevy entering the serie, and that it was a small deal. Nothing about car counts in 2011 (which is a completely different issue).

It will not be a small deal (unless tens of millions of dollars in a couple of years is small off course), and the serie will get extra revenue, the tv-networks get extra revenue out of commercials, teams will get chevy funding, events will get extra promotion and everyone involved looking for sponsors gets an extra selling point (a big name manufacturerer is involved in the serie). The only possible negative item might be that the OEM's increase the costs to compete with their 'war', but there seem to be cost-containment rules for this.

We can discuss the car count for 2011 (which i don't see why they would be substantially lower then in 2010, because really what has changed negatively so that there will be less then cars?), but again that was not what you were referring to.

I was talking about teams surviving in 2011, in the posts I have made in the past few days it has been mentioned several times, so I would go back over the previous two pages in this thread.

From what has been gathered if you read Oreovicz or any of the others, it does appear to be a small deal. Chevy pays to badge a motor, but there are no "works" teams and other than some marketing support mentioned, it's been made clear there are no big checks going to teams or drivers or to the series, just "marketing support". Teams will still have to lease motors for a fee. The tv commercial revenue goes to the tv channels.

Please feel free to direct me to a reputable public source that states the teams and series are going to get huge wads of cash placed in their pocket, cause I sure did not see that.

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Somedays you just want to stick your head in a blender.

What I say is that if the shoe fits, it fits, I'm only responding to santaclaus98 and his worrying about me, rather than just debating the issues. I'm not looking for "targets" and I don't care who you are or what you do, I'm only interested in good debate.

No one knows the future and things can change quite rapidly, so don't count those chickens yet.

Hahaha, if you think I'm utterly desperate to have it at any costs, then you're the misguided one. I have plenty of other motorsport to keep me busy. I'm an F1 fan first and foremost, what I want most is a strong ladder to compete with the European ladder, so that our best drivers get the proper training on the ladder, and the proper backing, so that maybe, just maybe, there might be an American GP winner in my lifetime. It just so happens that you can't have a strong ladder without a strong premier category, therefore, I am rooting for IndyCar to succeed, and the quicker the better.


You whine about it being Formula Honda, fine. I was right there with you, as I believe that brand recognition will bring a lot more fans, and the brunt Honda's demographic could really care less about fast cars, much less racing. But then Chevy signed up, and while I do realize that nothing is official until the lump is in the back of the car, that is a huge happening. It pumps life into a series that was on it's last breath just months ago.

And you act as if I think Tony George did anything good. He's the anti-christ to me as well. As stated above, I want a strong ladder. And had he not messed about, there could have easily been one, even as late as the late 90's and early 00's, Atlantics and Indy Lights were getting onto ESPN2. If that hadn't changed, who knows where the ladder series would be right now. Look at what ESPN did for Busch/Nationwide. Not to mention the fact that I know he's a lying SOB, because if he really wanted to get USAC drivers in the series, he'd get them into Atlantics, or Lights, which would get them in front of the teams.


But inspite of that, and other things about the series that I don't like, I can get past.

[mountainstar]

Well, well, well.

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...factory-teams/

No "factory" teams, no sponsorship or subsidization of teams by manufacturers, no special engines, nothing says der commissar. Not set in stone but they are making moves to keep all that happening.

I'd guess the reason why is any marketing funds out there they want channeled into the irl to prop it up, it isn't a profitable concern, so all roads lead to indy.

That was first noticeable with the izod thing, the irl was paranoid about money running into teams coffers rather than their own.

Then came revelations about the "dallara tax" on parts and of course the tax and fees to be charged on "aero kit" builders.

For all these high taxes, teams do get a welfare check though, they should be happy.

[gttouring]

indeed-
"We’ve seen the special engines, the big investment in a team, or a manufacturer giving out an advantage to who they want to have it " cotman.
well Chevy signs penske- penske tests first in everything- someone else can get any engine chevy builds, except the newest one where penske tests - how will they enforce a special relationship with penske form not devloping
Penske is a special relationship with anyone lucky or unlucky enough to do business with him and the organization. cripes
no factory team- fine- i don't see how this will be enforce- some one is always the favorite son (or daughter.)
even the most clever legalise will not hamper this from happening.
NASCAR behaves this way and we all see Hendrick is the factory team since DEI-RCR dissolved into the Organization it is today. And Roush-nee roush yate- nee roush fenway is the Ford team- everyone knows it.
just as Gibbs has become the Toyota team in Cup.
redbull sorry you have the cash but not the eye of the one who feeds.

I like the direction they want this to go, but don't be so naive. it isn't going that way. That's why Chevy approached Penske in the first place.

[ptclaus98]

It's ridiculous. It's a natural thing that happens in motorsport. Even for a team like Penske it could still take a few years, and when it does happen, I say kudos to them. Push comes to shove, choke the boost a little. Or better yet, take some test days away from them.