[Team] US F1

[tblincoe]

Originally Posted by Mixer

The problem always is that Jeff Gordon was earning something like $24m a year driving Nascar, so why would he change?

Absolutely true and that's why we won't get a Gordon or Jimmie Johnson. However, surely there are drivers on the NASCAR circuit that would consider the move for the challenge alone (obviously with a little cash to make it worth it) and the fact that its not NASCAR. Not that he would due to his ownership ties with NASCAR, but a Kyle Busch-type strikes me as someone who would appreciate the opportunity to at least test in F1 and see where he fits in.

I just find it interesting that Europeans consider NASCAR and have joined the various series even after F1 careers - there is absolutely no reciprocal interest or action.

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by tblincoe

But don't you think that Stefan are opportunists and aren't really the best option for F1's future grids? Prodrive, Lola, or N.Technology could be ready to go at this point too if they were given a slot.

In my mind, we don't need two more cars on the grid just to have two more cars. The grid is PLENTY strong this year even without the three newcomers scheduled to appear at Bahrain and beyond.

I say do an open selection process for the 2011 entry without the silly engine-choice restrictions and get a real team that will be there in the future. If USF1 or Stefan deserve the spot, then give it to them. But don't gift it to them based on opportunity or a prior selection that wasn't fulfilled. If the FIA is truly concerned about having strong independent teams on the grid to counteract the dependence on manufacturer involvement, the decision is obvious in my mind.

I agree 100%

People are only looking at Stefan GP as they are the only other option, its the choice of 1.

I say revoke the USF1 entry, deny Stefan GP an entry and have an open selection for 2011, when hopefully a real team can enter, like ProDrive, DAMS, RML, Lola or NTech.

[Wims]

Lola doesnt have a team and Prodrive wasnt able to create a car and show up the last time they got an F1 grid spot. What makes you think these "teams" would do any better than Stefan, who happens to own a modern Toyota chassis?

[duke_toaster]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

I agree 100%

People are only looking at Stefan GP as they are the only other option, its the choice of 1.

I say revoke the USF1 entry, deny Stefan GP an entry and have an open selection for 2011, when hopefully a real team can enter, like ProDrive, DAMS, RML, Lola or NTech.

That would be the sensible option, really. It would still be nice if there was a US based team of course, but if someone of the calibre of Penske or Panoz don't turn up, it's not going to happen.

Originally Posted by Wims

Lola doesnt have a team and Prodrive wasnt able to create a car and show up the last time they got an F1 grid spot. What makes you think these "teams" would do any better than Stefan, who happens to own a modern Toyota chassis?

Stefan have a modern Toyota chassis, but do they have ability to make new cars for 2011, 2012, 2013? Lola could easily get a perfectly capable team such as RML or WSR to run their cars, or form a high quality team. Prodrive only didn't race last time they were given an entry as the FIA moved the goalposts to ban customer cars, they do have the facilities to built their own car if they are given enough time to do so.

[jab]

What I'd like to see is for them to reopen the 2011 entries, but tell Bernie to go off and try to find someone to work with Toyota that isn't Zoran Stefanovic and make that the best candidate. Preferably someone/an organisation with lots of money and that would add something to the sport

Or, what I'd like to see is Hurley get rid of the incompetant fools he's got running US F1 at the moment and bring in some respected names - someone like Bobby Rahal. Or even team up with an existing American team like Penske, Ganassi or Andretti with Hurley and other American investors funding it. If he does that, then US F1 should be given another chance. But if PW and in particular KA are still around, they can get lost

Perhaps we could even bring them together - an American team run by respected American motorsport figures with investment from Hurley et all and a big American sponsor, preferably with a different, more imaginative team name, with Toyota designing the car. And Graham or Marco or Rossi driving alongside an F1 veteran. No nationalism

Originally Posted by Wims

Lola doesnt have a team and Prodrive wasnt able to create a car and show up the last time they got an F1 grid spot. What makes you think these "teams" would do any better than Stefan, who happens to own a modern Toyota chassis?

Stefanovic don't own anything by Toyota yet, per se. They have agreements and stuff and the IP will officially be theirs on condition of an entry but I'm sure things can and will change. I don't see Stefanovic being around this time next year. It's now or never for them, I think - that's why he's so desperate to get in now

[fourWheelDrift]

Originally Posted by Wims

Lola doesnt have a team and Prodrive wasnt able to create a car and show up the last time they got an F1 grid spot. What makes you think these "teams" would do any better than Stefan, who happens to own a modern Toyota chassis?

There has to be a long term view and to deny other potentially effective teams a chance to enter in 2011 because a wealthy opportunist has snapped up some of the assets of a withdrawing team would be a) hugely unfair and b) not in the long term interests of the sport.

As I said earlier those who haven't made it should be excluded. There should then be a new application process for the free spaces on the grid for 2011 and there should be no barrier to USF1, Campos, Stefan or whoever being a part of that process, although their performance so far could be a factor in the process. It's about time the FIA started behaving like a governing body with some integrity instead of all the silly and childish bickering and manipulation we had in the MM era and parachuting Stefan in at the last minute would be just the same old same old as far as I can see.

[F1 Prospects]

This is getting weirder and weirder as Speed TV are reporting that Rossiter was signed to them as well as Lopez both bringing in 8 million USD.

http://formula-one.speedtv.com/artic...well-as-lopez/

I am starting to see where the incompetence is coming into play here. Is it possible that the FIA could essentially revoke the entry from the current management and approach somebody like Penske, Panoz or even the Andrettis to build some kind of new management structure under the USF1 name for 2011? Bobby Rahal wasn't too succesful the last time he was involved in F1 with Jaguar.

[jab]

Originally Posted by F1 Prospects

Bobby Rahal wasn't too succesful the last time he was involved in F1 with Jaguar.

Name me someone who was successful with Jaguar

The politics overshadowed every team boss there. That team was a mess

[DanShenise]

Bobby Rahal wasn't around long enough to prove his worth, especially when Ford/Jaguar brought in Lauda to stir the pot. Too many chiefs was the biggest problem. I think if given time, it would have worked out. But then again it was all politics all the time at Ford in the early 2000's. That last Jag was great looking though.

Regarding USF1, the entry should be revoked and let Stefan in. They have a car ready to go and ought to be able to make something of it this year. With a full year under their belt, an improving global economy, they should be able to build for next season as well. Its too bad Ken is such a screw up, but life goes on, and I don't think they would have made an impression on the US public anyway. I'm still a Honda/Brawn/MB and Jordan/Midland/Spyker/Force India fan and just because USF1 have a shop down the road, my loyalties aren't going to change. Especially when their approach to the sport wasn't "thrifty" but more "cheap".

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

That would be the sensible option, really. It would still be nice if there was a US based team of course, but if someone of the calibre of Penske or Panoz don't turn up, it's not going to happen.

Panoz is donezo. The smart guys are all over the place now, including USF1.

[strider]

Adam Cooper is reporting that US F1 have have asked for a one year delay.

Personally I don't think they should be allowed to have it, but I am far more concerned about the identity of the drivers for Campos Meta (or whatever it may be called) should they make it to Bahrain.

[jab]

Originally Posted by jab

It seems US F1 still think they can get on the grid...next year

Originally Posted by slicktoast

Apparently USF1 is asking for an extension/delay till 2011
See SPEEDTV site.

Originally Posted by gregc

And now they seem to be asking for a deferral to 2011 - http://www.crash.net/f1/news/157310/...m_campaign=rss

Originally Posted by grumpyf14d

The blogs are beginning to report that USF1 is looking to miss the entire season and pay some 7 figure price to reserve a spot for 2011. Now let the fun begin.

Originally Posted by strider

Adam Cooper is reporting that US F1 have have asked for a one year delay.

Dyou think US F1 might have asked to skip this year?

[Jamesy-18]

Don't think it'll change much even if they do get a one year delay!

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by Jamesy-18

Don't think it'll change much even if they do get a one year delay!

Yep, I fear they will still be in complete disarray come December unless a change of leadership is on the cards, which it isn't as they appear to be quite stubborn.

[P38 in workshop]

I would support the admission of Stefan this year as they are more prepared than USF1 appear to be.I would also support the idea of the lowest finishing team in the championship having to demonstrate reasons why they should be permitted to continue for the following season.The concept of relegation from football leagues is well established and the process would allow the FIA to select the best qualified team to occupy the thirteenth slot.If teams wishing to enter had to lodge a business plan by the beginning of July,a decision could be announced early enough to allow another Lotus style rapid development to get on the grid with failure leading to forfeit of the entry.I am surprised that there appears to be no penalty applied to the team with the greatest lead time of all the new entrants failing to fulfill their obligations.The unofficial penalty will obviously be the destruction of the credibility of the principals.

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by jab

Stefanovic don't own anything by Toyota yet, per se. They have agreements and stuff and the IP will officially be theirs on condition of an entry but I'm sure things can and will change. I don't see Stefanovic being around this time next year. It's now or never for them, I think - that's why he's so desperate to get in now

This is right, Stefan have not paid the final instalment and don't have the cars.

Originally Posted by Wims

Lola doesnt have a team and Prodrive wasnt able to create a car and show up the last time they got an F1 grid spot. What makes you think these "teams" would do any better than Stefan, who happens to own a modern Toyota chassis?

Prodrive "wasn't able to show up" because certain people (*cough* Frank Williams) basically kyboshed rules that had already been agreed upon, re customer cars.

[deletraz]

Seems to me the FIA should ask USF1 to document where their funding for 2011 is coming from. If it's reasonable, give them the extension. If they don't have anything in place, open up the slot for bidding and see if anyone can do better. The team seemed to imply they had a funding source if they got a quick answer on missing a few races. If that's true, the FIA should be able to determine it.

The Stefan thing still looks like smoke and mirrors to me, and they seem much more interested in showing off packing slips for shipments to Bahrain than actual evidence that they could get two cars there. The business plan would also seem to require another team to go out of business in a year to sell Stefan a 2011 car.

To revoke USF1's entry is to assume there's a better candidate out there, and I'm still not convinced that's the case. Lola and Prodrive each had a chance with nothing to show for it in the end. At least USF1 has Chad Hurley involved, and he seems like the kind of person F1 would benefit from bringing into the fold.

I am sort of amused at the people who seem to think any delay in a team making the grid is an unacceptable outrage. The corporate rigidity of the F1 field is a quite recent development, and at least for me it isn't a necessarily positive one. F1 will not crumble if Campos shows up a race late.

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by deletraz

I am sort of amused at the people who seem to think any delay in a team making the grid is an unacceptable outrage. The corporate rigidity of the F1 field is a quite recent development, and at least for me it isn't a necessarily positive one. F1 will not crumble if Campos shows up a race late.

Lets not forget Toyota joined the grid a year later than they planned...

[tblincoe]

Originally Posted by deletraz

To revoke USF1's entry is to assume there's a better candidate out there, and I'm still not convinced that's the case. Lola and Prodrive each had a chance with nothing to show for it in the end. At least USF1 has Chad Hurley involved, and he seems like the kind of person F1 would benefit from bringing into the fold.

I am sort of amused at the people who seem to think any delay in a team making the grid is an unacceptable outrage. The corporate rigidity of the F1 field is a quite recent development, and at least for me it isn't a necessarily positive one. F1 will not crumble if Campos shows up a race late.

You've actually got this backwards if you really think about it: letting USF1 retain the entry for 2011 is the assumption. Opening up a selection process is the exact opposite of an assumption - its a process of evaluating potential applicants so that an informed decision is made. If USF1 truly only need a year to prepare following a series of unfortunate events, then let them enter. If they are the right team for the slot, then so be it. If they aren't, then the cycle won't repeat itself in some form or fashion next year. I honestly can't agree with any argument to the contrary that's been presented so far...

As an aside, how did Lola and Prodrive each have a chance and do nothing with said chance? I guess I'll bite and echo the same statements made by others earlier in the thread:

If you're referring to Lola Mastercard, its obvious that the failure of that project had no connection whatsoever to Lola's ability as a manufacturer and team. I'm sure you'll say the same thing happened with USF1, but the differences between the two situations is drastically different - first being that Lola got on the grid to begin with.

And Prodrive flat out did not have a chance. The auspices under which they attempted to enter were completely turned on their head - it was an utter impossibility to enter for the very same reason that none of the other newcomers attempted to fill that spot until 2010.

But even with your point about the two in mind, the FIA could certainly take all of these factors into consideration during the selection process. That being said, I'm sure we all know by now that between the various 'failures' of the teams in question, USF1 is highly unlikely to be deemed the best entry for F1 in 2011...

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by deletraz

The corporate rigidity of the F1 field is a quite recent development, and at least for me it isn't a necessarily positive one. F1 will not crumble if Campos shows up a race late.

I remember when I was just getting into F1, BRM entered FIVE cars in the 1972 Argentine GP; not one finished in the points. Teams would quite often enter more than two cars, in those days.

[deletraz]

Originally Posted by tblincoe

You've actually got this backwards if you really think about it: letting USF1 retain the entry for 2011 is the assumption. Opening up a selection process is the exact opposite of an assumption - its a process of evaluating potential applicants so that an informed decision is made. If USF1 truly only need a year to prepare following a series of unfortunate events, then let them enter. If they are the right team for the slot, then so be it. If they aren't, then the cycle won't repeat itself in some form or fashion next year. I honestly can't agree with any argument to the contrary that's been presented so far...

Fair enough. Of course, the FIA already determined that USF1 is a more promising entry than Lola, Prodrive, N. Technology, and the rest of the bunch that fell short, so I suppose you could argue they earned that assumption.

As an aside, how did Lola and Prodrive each have a chance and do nothing with said chance? I guess I'll bite and echo the same statements made by others earlier in the thread:

If you're referring to Lola Mastercard, its obvious that the failure of that project had no connection whatsoever to Lola's ability as a manufacturer and team. I'm sure you'll say the same thing happened with USF1, but the differences between the two situations is drastically different - first being that Lola got on the grid to begin with.

Yes, of course I'm referring to Lola Mastercard, a project that failed because Lola didn't have the money to succeed. Yes, I will suggest that it's quite similar to USF1 in that regard. I'll even split hairs and point out that Lola did not in fact make the grid, because the one time they showed up they were 11+ seconds off the pace and failed to qualify.

Certainly Lola is a company with a long, proud tradition of success at the highest levels of racing; USF1 is a website and a largely empty building. But I would not hold up Lola as some kind of terrific fallback option when Lola as a works team provided one of the spectacular flameouts in F1 history.

And Prodrive flat out did not have a chance. The auspices under which they attempted to enter were completely turned on their head - it was an utter impossibility to enter for the very same reason that none of the other newcomers attempted to fill that spot until 2010.

Yes, they were. Of course, the new group of entries came under the belief that there would be a budget cap. The subsequent elimination of the cap made things exponentially harder for the new teams. Not necessarily to the degree that the customer car decision hurt Prodrive, to be fair... but at the same time, do you think Richards would have put in an entry for Prodrive without the prospect of a budget cap? He has had a number of opportunities to enter F1 as a self-sufficient constructor and he has balked at each one, presumably because of the expense. I'm not sure he's interested in replacing USF1.

But even with your point about the two in mind, the FIA could certainly take all of these factors into consideration during the selection process. That being said, I'm sure we all know by now that between the various 'failures' of the teams in question, USF1 is highly unlikely to be deemed the best entry for F1 in 2011...

Maybe, maybe not. The FIA would certainly be justified in canceling the entry and telling USF1 to go scratch. That doesn't mean there's a better candidate out there that's actually interested in jumping into F1 under the current circumstances.

Again, USF1 has made noises suggesting it has money lined up if only they are allowed a delay. It seems to me it would be wise of the FIA to investigate that. If it's legitimately the case, I would be inclined to delay the entry. If not, I would probably open up the process for 2011.

[tblincoe]

Originally Posted by deletraz

Yes, of course I'm referring to Lola Mastercard, a project that failed because Lola didn't have the money to succeed. Yes, I will suggest that it's quite similar to USF1 in that regard. I'll even split hairs and point out that Lola did not in fact make the grid, because the one time they showed up they were 11+ seconds off the pace and failed to qualify.

Certainly Lola is a company with a long, proud tradition of success at the highest levels of racing; USF1 is a website and a largely empty building. But I would not hold up Lola as some kind of terrific fallback option when Lola as a works team provided one of the spectacular flameouts in F1 history.

It wasn't Lola proper who didn't "have" the money - they were in several ways put in a bad monetary situation by a particular named sponsor. Lola produced, tested, and got a car to a race weekend under circumstances far more difficult than those faced by USF1. I've yet to hear a single F1 pundit lay the blame for the situation on anyone besides MCD and Mastercard. By comparison, USF1 hasn't even completed mandatory crash testing, let alone participated in any of the aforementioned racing activities. Once again, Lola was associated with a failure, but to even intimate that the two situations are related in the slightest so as to give USF1 the benefit of the doubt is beyond me.

Yes, they were. Of course, the new group of entries came under the belief that there would be a budget cap. The subsequent elimination of the cap made things exponentially harder for the new teams. Not necessarily to the degree that the customer car decision hurt Prodrive, to be fair... but at the same time, do you think Richards would have put in an entry for Prodrive without the prospect of a budget cap? He has had a number of opportunities to enter F1 as a self-sufficient constructor and he has balked at each one, presumably because of the expense. I'm not sure he's interested in replacing USF1.

I'm not sure I'm understanding your point - because the way your last two posts have sounded, it seems as though you believe Richards was given an entry more than once. Prodrive never got the chance to be on the grid in 2010 because they didn't get an entry, and it had nothing to do with USF1 being a 'better' team on paper or otherwise. I can assure you that if the FIA wasn't hell-bent on a knee-jerk reaction to the FOTA row by mandating that any new entry be Cosworth-powered, a condition that resulted in a legal challenge I might add, then Prodrive would be headed to Bahrain as we speak.

Maybe, maybe not. The FIA would certainly be justified in canceling the entry and telling USF1 to go scratch. That doesn't mean there's a better candidate out there that's actually interested in jumping into F1 under the current circumstances.

Again, USF1 has made noises suggesting it has money lined up if only they are allowed a delay. It seems to me it would be wise of the FIA to investigate that. If it's legitimately the case, I would be inclined to delay the entry. If not, I would probably open up the process for 2011.

Once again, opening up the process allows the FIA to accomplish all of these assessments you mention while allowing a comparison to other potential entries - and, more importantly, not being bound to USF1's promises which, up until now, leave something to be desired.

Okay, enough out of me!

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by deletraz

Yes, of course I'm referring to Lola Mastercard, a project that failed because Lola didn't have the money to succeed. Yes, I will suggest that it's quite similar to USF1 in that regard. I'll even split hairs and point out that Lola did not in fact make the grid, because the one time they showed up they were 11+ seconds off the pace and failed to qualify.

Certainly Lola is a company with a long, proud tradition of success at the highest levels of racing; USF1 is a website and a largely empty building. But I would not hold up Lola as some kind of terrific fallback option when Lola as a works team provided one of the spectacular flameouts in F1 history.

With Lola and MasterCard pretty much the exact opposite happened in comparison to USF1. Lola had built the car and wanted to race it in 1998 but MasterCard pushed them into go a season early, so though the car had not even been wind tunnel tested. With the obvious results. However, I was always surprised as to why Eric Broadley, with his experience as founder of Lola Cars and Team Principal, didn't kick up a real fuss.

[Mixer]

The common element here is that neither teams had the resources behind them to race on if a particular sponsor pulled out.

Surely racing is like any business, sometimes you have to back your business through slow sales, you can't shut the door just because one customer didn't come through.

[bjohnsonsmith]

They are entirely different scenarios. In Lola's case the car had the sponsor but wasn't ready to race and in USF1's case there appears to be neither.