[Rules] Time to scrap the safety car?

[BootsOntheSide]

The entire Singapore incident could have been avoided if it weren't for the overuse of the safety car. Piquet knew that a crash at that point would bring it up, so as to compress the field and allow Alonso to make use of his earlier stop. In the past the drivers would have simply avoided driving too fast through the corner Piquet crashed at, or a gap in the wall would have been built in.

I'm increasingly starting to think the safety car causes more problems than it solves. Drivers used to be able to avoid debris and track workers under normal conditions, and the occasional red-flag never really did anybody any harm. The safety car artificially closes the field up, removes the chance to get crashed cars back into the race, and reduces the number of racing laps (making it harder for new drivers to learn the ropes). It exists not for 'safety' but for TV schedulers.

Plenty of incidents have been caused by the safety car as well.

• In yesterday's GP2 race, the safety car exited the track slowly (having been out instead of a full-on restart anyway), on a track in which the final corner is fast and follows a long straight. The leader put the power down slightly too early, the next few cars went with him, and all got ahead of the safety car before it was fully into the pits. Result - penalties for the top seven, completely wrecking the race (a standalone event with its own paying customers, on an awesome circuit).
  
• GP2 Magny-Cours 2007 - cars show for safety car at different times, collide, car ends up straddling inside wall on the run down to Adelaide.
  
• Formula Two at Imola - two cars overheat under the safety car and blow within one lap - one causing three more cars to crash as the driver dumped oil on the racing line. Ironically, this oil was cleaned up under racing conditions, with no injuries to marshals or further spins.
  
• WTCC at Pau - Driver crashes into Safety Car which joined the track too lsowly by crossing the white line, privately-entered car written off, driver robbed of stunning result

Maybe it's purely luck that nobody has been injured in any of these incidents.

[jab]

Originally Posted by BootsOntheSide

Piquet knew that a crash at that point would bring it up

Symonds said to crash at that particular corner because there wasn't a crane there, meaning they had to put the safety car out. It just would've been too dangerous

I look back at some old races, often places like Monaco, where there were wrecked cars on the side of the circuit that would have led to safety car periods. I think perhaps they are a bit heavy-handed at times - there do seem to be double standards, like only putting the safety car out for the first lap crash at Monza in 2000 when a marshal was fatally injured but putting a red flag out for other first lap incidents. But I wouldn't get rid of the safety car altogether - the reason is in the phrase itself

And 3 of those incidents were in junior series with inexperienced drivers. F1's completely different. I only ever remember a small handful of incidents under SC conditions in F1 (the Webber/Vettel collision caused by Hamilton's weaving, Button spinning himself off at Monza in 2000, Schumacher getting turned into the wall whilst brake-testing Montoya), and it's been in place for 16 years

[Piglet]

Red flags are always going to be avoided because of the effect that they have on TV time and would you really want to sit around for 30 minutes whilst the track is cleared and the countdown starts again?

I don't see that the Piquet incident leads to a conclusion that the safety car should be scrapped. Just because some individuals choose to cheat doesn't mean that the whole concept of a safety car is flawed.

National motorsport would be untenable without a safety car, we would run timetables with half the content on them (at twice the price) if we had to red flag sessions to retrieve cars in dangerous positions etc.

...and of course, if you want to come and marshal at events where the only options are a red flag or marshals retrieving vehicles etc. on a live circuit then you're welcome to!

[bdwoody]

who or why did some one came up with the phrase "saftey car" anywho , it just aint. its a pace car or a start car or a control car , it realy bugs me this over use of the word safety ..
does it stop accidents , or even stop at them ? it is just a jolly for berndt mylander (sp?) to mooch about on a gp weekend and get paid .
get rid of the stupid thing and let them race like they used to and then they may get rid of it in clubbie racing too !!!!

[medius]

The point of the safety car is to neutralise the race while incidents are dealt with in a safe manner by the hard working track officials and corner marshalls.

Anyone wanting to make motorsport uneccessarily MORE dangerous by removing the safety car, is a nutjob.

[Quintin03]

I think the safety car should be kept but not put on to the track unless it is realy needed. Monaco didn't need one this year so it should be doable at every track.

[duke_toaster]

Originally Posted by BootsOntheSide

Plenty of incidents have been caused by the safety car as well.
In yesterday's GP2 race, the safety car exited the track slowly (having been out instead of a full-on restart anyway), on a track in which the final corner is fast and follows a long straight. The leader put the power down slightly too early, the next few cars went with him, and all got ahead of the safety car before it was fully into the pits. Result - penalties for the top seven, completely wrecking the race (a standalone event with its own paying customers, on an awesome circuit).

That sounds like an idiot driver, not a fault with the SC. I think it would be beneficial for lower tiers of series to do a practice safety car, like the practice starts regime F1 has.

GP2 Magny-Cours 2007 - cars show for safety car at different times, collide, car ends up straddling inside wall on the run down to Adelaide.

That could either be solved by drivers actually looking - or doing what F1 does and putting SC lights inside the cockpit (linked up to an audible message?)

Formula Two at Imola - two cars overheat under the safety car and blow within one lap - one causing three more cars to crash as the driver dumped oil on the racing line. Ironically, this oil was cleaned up under racing conditions, with no injuries to marshals or further spins.

What was the SC? Presumably it was too slow in that case.

WTCC at Pau - Driver crashes into Safety Car which joined the track too lsowly by crossing the white line, privately-entered car written off, driver robbed of stunning result

That SC driver was clearly an idiot in that case.

The SC has the advantages in many areas. It keeps the cars moving, saving time (crucial for club motorsport). It bunches up the cars which is necessary for marshals to clear the track. It also has the commercial advantages too.

What is the alternative?

This does not detract from the fact that there are many cases where the SC is a necessity - it's either that or keeping part of the track under yellows for the rest of the race. Live snatches are possible in F1 but not possible everywhere. If you've got a car that's stopped on the track with a blown engine a red flag would cause havoc but local yellows would be silly. That's why the SC is needed - someone will suggest Code 60s but they don't bunch the cars up.

[BootsOntheSide]

How did we cope without them in the past? I'd be willing to guess that we have 3-4 times as many safety car periods as we had red flags in those days. There are times when it's an advantage over red flags, especially for TV purposes, but did we really have half as many races at twice the cost (taking inflation into account) before it was added to national racing? At least the modern tracks with wide run-off areas don't need them as often.

[jab]

Originally Posted by BootsOntheSide

How did we cope without them in the past?

Clay Regazzoni ended up paralysed from hitting Ricardo Zunino's parked Brabham. And that was up an escape road as well. And then there's the unfortunate incident at Vancouver in the CART race when Jean Patrick Hein was mowed down by Willy T Ribbs

[Dutton]

I think the SC is a valid and necessary device in itself, but I do think it gets used at times when other options are more appropriate.

The USA and Canada have taken SC overuse to the extreme, and it would seem the rest of motorsport is very much heading that way.

[Piglet]

Originally Posted by BootsOntheSide

How did we cope without them in the past? I'd be willing to guess that we have 3-4 times as many safety car periods as we had red flags in those days. There are times when it's an advantage over red flags, especially for TV purposes, but did we really have half as many races at twice the cost (taking inflation into account) before it was added to national racing? At least the modern tracks with wide run-off areas don't need them as often.

I don't know, I don't go back that far. Although I do remember a day at Brands about 8 years ago where we had 9 red flags in one day!

I'd hazard a guess that we didn't have the "health and safety" culture that we have now so if there were incidents it was more acceptable to leave cars on the edge of the track than it is now. Whereas now there are too many people who have forgotten that motorsport is dangerous.

I'm also fairly sure that timetables didn't have the content in them that they do today, they were more relaxed.

[BootsOntheSide]

Didn't Vancouver race officials have the option of the safety car? And perhaps Regazzoni's injuries would not have occurred in a modern F1 car, or indeed at a modern F1 circuit. The option of keeping part of the track under yellow isn't necessarily an awful one - especially if the corner is not an overtaking place.

[Jamesy-18]

Sorry, but in what way was the Safety Car to blame in the Singapore Incident? They were just doing their job after all. TBH there is not much you can do to change it, unless you want to go back to the days of "red flag" everytime a serious crash happens?

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by Jamesy-18

Sorry, but in what way was the Safety Car to blame in the Singapore Incident? They were just doing their job after all. TBH there is not much you can do to change it, unless you want to go back to the days of "red flag" everytime a serious crash happens?

I agree, if there had been nothing for the boy to crash into, this wouldn't have happened either.
So, are we going to get rid of barriers or street circuits as well?

[Piglet]

Originally Posted by Jamesy-18

TBH there is not much you can do to change it, unless you want to go back to the days of "red flag" everytime a serious crash happens?

It doesn't even take a serious crash to bring out a safety car. It only needs a car stranded in a dangerous position - say beached on a kerb to need to neutralise the race in some way. I don't believe that yellows alone are effective, as someone else said, it doesn't bunch the field up to give a gap for the marshals to get out and try to clear the car.

[Super Hans]

I've no problem with having a safety car, it's a necesary evil. I'm just glad they got rid of that ludicrous rule which prevented drivers from entering the pits, causing fuel-starved competitors to either pick up a penalty or break down.

The one thing I do dislike is the lottery element. Last season in particular, we had a number of freak results caused wholly by drivers lucking-out under the SC. I remember Piquet came 2nd in Germany and received all sorts of praise he didn't really deserve.

[Armco Bender]

Not only can the safety car deployment be manipulated by the teams,it can also be manipulated by the officals to bunch the feild up to get better racing.
If only Piquet had spun out and not clouted the barrier no one would have been any the wiser.
The marshalls at the Italian GP must be the fastest in the world at removing stranded cars,they were whipping them off the track so fast that a number of safety car deployments were averted.

[ensign14]

We have common ECUs. Instead of the show car someone just flicks a switch at central control and they're all doing 50mph. Even if that's considered unsafe as it takes control out of the drivers' hands, it's not difficult to suggest that drivers should be forced to put the limiter on within 5 seconds of a pre-arranged signal and cannot gain position in those seconds. At least that does something to preserve the original gaps rather than allowing teams to do this sort of thing.

The miracle is it's taken so long for someone to come up with a way of circumventing it. Anyway, I dispute that a red flag puts people off. It adds to the intrigue and heightens the excitement and anticipation.

The show car is the enemy of motorsport. And tell Viviane Senna it's safer...

[duke_toaster]

Ensign, that is a similar principle to the Code 60 thing in the Netherlands. There are two clear faults in the Code 60, one specific to elite level single seaters.

The first is the fact that cars will not be bunched up. This makes it more difficult for vehicles to be snatched off the circuit, as the marshals would have very short windows to work in to clear the cars up if they were still circulating at 80 km/h.

The second is that 80 km/h would be slower than the speed of the safety car in most circumstances now. It would cause even more tyre heat and pressure problems than the SC.

[zac510]

Don't forget the rules that pitting under the safety car were different this time last year and they are primarily what enabled Alonso to gain such an advantage. The same incident again would not give Alonso such a big advantage.

[duke_toaster]

Also there will be less of an advantage to any such scheme next year as refuelling will be banned.

[ensign14]

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

The first is the fact that cars will not be bunched up. This makes it more difficult for vehicles to be snatched off the circuit, as the marshals would have very short windows to work in to clear the cars up if they were still circulating at 80 km/h.

If it is so unsafe the marshals cannot clear things up with cars circulating at slow speeds, the race should be red-flagged. (Although that is no good thanks to the aggregate score thing being removed, for no apparent reason.)

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

The second is that 80 km/h would be slower than the speed of the safety car in most circumstances now. It would cause even more tyre heat and pressure problems than the SC.

To be fair, the drivers ought to be able to cope with that...but there would be ways around it, e.g. a lap at 150km/h to finish off.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by ensign14

If it is so unsafe the marshals cannot clear things up with cars circulating at slow speeds, the race should be red-flagged.

As has been said in previous posts, the safety car bunches the cars up; that can create a gap of a couple of minutes in which to work, allowing much safer working than would be the case if cars were circulating, however slowly, spread out. In addition, the safety car observer will be in contact with Race Control, who will, in turn, be in contact with the people handling the incident, so the speed of the "train" can be controlled to take into account track conditions at the incident, even coming to a complete stop if necessary.

[JimW]

Originally Posted by Piglet

I don't know, I don't go back that far. Although I do remember a day at Brands about 8 years ago where we had 9 red flags in one day!

I'd hazard a guess that we didn't have the "health and safety" culture that we have now so if there were incidents it was more acceptable to leave cars on the edge of the track than it is now. Whereas now there are too many people who have forgotten that motorsport is dangerous.

I'm also fairly sure that timetables didn't have the content in them that they do today, they were more relaxed.

I think you are right in all of teh above. Personally I'd be happy to see more cars cleared by marshals under yellow flags. And Yes, I'm one of the people who would do that and do try to work that way.

Two factors apart from H&S are gravel traps, meaning marshals can't remove many more cars, and fewer marshals.

Regards

Jim

[csirl]

Slightly off topic.

We know who drives the safety car and the medical car.

Who drives the reserve safety car? It does exist because you often see it at races. Has it ever been used?