Bernie on the new teams

[jab]

So, Mr E reckons that Virgin and HRT are out of their depth, surplus to F1's requirements and wouldn't be missed if they drop out, which may happen soon anyway. And I must admit I agree with him

I was a big supporter of the new teams initiative last year instigated by Mosley. I thought it had potential and that the new teams would be able to cut it (apart from US F1, who were a joke). But after half a season, a year after the initial 3 teams were confirmed (none of whom made it in their original guises), I now believe it was a mistake

Lotus have been a success story. They've got the right people at the helm - specifically Fernandes and Gascoyne who are great ambassadors for the team and for new outfits in general. They're building a tidy outfit and I think they will go far

Virgin seem to have drawn the short straw in terms of media attention (Lotus have taken all the British coverage for one), which isn't good for a team that was relying on PR to justify its existence, and have had numerous niggling problems with their car which means they're pretty much behind Lotus at this point. Added to that, they don't seem to be making a great deal of progress. Their future doesn't look great

I am increasingly confused about Hispania. They're starting to remind me of Midland - while Bruno and Karun are lovely guys, I find myself wondering why they're in F1. Traditionally, minnows are in it for the love of the sport - see Minardi. They have a personality and character. Hispania seem to be going down the classic Kolles path of not having a personality or character. Carabante isn't it for the love of the sport - I don't know why he is in it. Their intentions are unclear. As a team, it's hard to like them. Added to this, they're in a mess financially and I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't make 2011

But all 3 of them are still way off the pace. This was to be expected at the start of the year. However, I would have expected them to have made greater progress than they have - as it is, none of them have got anywhere near scoring points yet. And of course they have come into F1 on the promise of being able to do it on a small budget, so they don't have the money to invest on getting up the grid

I think it was the wrong approach to take. We all know that Mosley did this for political reasons, but he could have at least done something sustainable. What with Renault rumoured to be in money trouble as well and suspiciously few sponsors adorning the Sauber even after 10 races, you have to wonder if we'll be back to where we were to start with by 2012

Surely it would've been much better had Mosley gone down the customer car route. Take Virgin, for instance - here is a well-known global brand who want to be a part of F1 but don't want to spend an enormous amount to join in the fun and be seen on the F1 grid. Surely it would've been better for them if Manor, instead of going to Nick Wirth to run some cars designed on a computer that have never seen a windtunnel with the prospect of little testing, went to Mercedes and said "hey, can we have a couple of 2009/2010 cars to run this year?". They'd have had a much better chance of being successful and would have a proven competitive car - yes, it wouldn't quite be on the pace of the works team (see MotoGP), but it would be more competitive than what they've got now. The same goes for Hispania if Carabante is serious about F1

As it is, Virgin will probably now walk away from the sport pretty soon, another wasted opportunity for F1. While Virgin Racing doesn't really add much to the series, Virgin as a brand does, and it would be a shame to lose them. And I'm sure there would be other companies that would be interested if customer cars were an option

I've supported customer cars for a while but now I will completely throw my weight behind the idea. I think the idea of every team building their own cars in F1 is now outdated. It has been proven in other series that it is too expensive to have multiple chassis constructors. While I would never want F1 to become a single chassis formula (I would hope that there would be a minimum of 6 or 7 constructors in the field whatever happens, and that new manufacturers would still enter as constructors), the FIA should take the hint. Not only could F1 have a bigger field with customer cars, but it would be a stronger, more competitive field. After all, no one cared when Toro Rosso won a race that it was a customer Red Bull...

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by jab

...I now believe it was a mistake...

I always believe it was a mistake...



Not that I have to remind you

[Knowlesy]

We do need customer cars. We would get so much more interest in the sport from new teams and a more closed up grid.

Why it is a problem when, in the early days, it was completely normal is beyond me.

[Richard B]

I feel sorry for the new teams, they came on board under the umbrella of the protection of a £40m budget cap that never happened. Virgin and HRT do deserve to be in F1 if only due to their passion to be part of the F1 circus, but under the current rules they will flounder and possibly go. Like many teams in previous decades (Simtek Paciffic Minardi etc) if passion and determination qualified for the grid then they would be on the front row.
Jab is bang on, customer cars are the answer, Virgin are too strong a brand to loose.

As far as Lotus are concerned I am so pleased for them. When they announced their return to F1 and were somwhat criticised by some I was angry (being connected to Litespeed myself) but their results have justified their entry.

[duke_toaster]

I'm going to deal with the three new teams separately as they are three special cases.

Lotus is by far the best of the new teams, and it is an achievement to be on the grid bearing in mind they only started up in September last year. Many of the initial stupid ideas have been stomped on, which is a good thing. They may well be a midfield team next year. Rumour has it that Tony Fernandes is interested in taking over the Team Lotus name next year (which would be a great step), and it has also been suggested he's interested in taking over Lotus Cars. That would be interesting.

Virgin have been quite anonymous so far, the fuel tank issue was a great embarrassment. The team may well improve - especially bearing in mind Nick Wirth is involved, but if they languish at the bottom Branson could pull the plug. That would leave the team in a Hispania type situation. They are a medium term risk, unlike the next team.

When the FIA selected Campos, they didn't expect the comedy of errors that followed. They selected a union of a top GP2 team and the world's leading junior single seater builder, what they got was a bloke buying them to preserve his investment, a car that was shunted to the backburner by its unpaid builders and, eventually, Colin Kolles. Hispania have been woefully off the pace with the car being woefully inadequate (not Dallara's fault, they slowed down development when the cheques weren't coming through) and a lack of pre-season testing, with Karun Chandhok first driving the car in Q1 in Bahrain. Due to a major lack of money they are now resorting to people who can produce cash quicker. However, this has come at the cost of on-track success.

Who designs next year's car is up in the air. I don't think we will see Hispania in 2011, and while I would have every sympathy for all their employees (whose fault this situation is not), including both drivers, I don't think their absence will be too much of a problem. A new team will presumably enter next year, meaning the field will be stable at twelve teams. A thirteenth is always an option, but that would be a luxury. Eleven teams is acceptable, ten isn't. Nine and we get in to Concorde Agreement issues.

[pannenmann]

I'm not so sure about that whole customer car thing. What if RBR decides to sell their car to the one who offers most? Sure a team that is supported by some wealthy guy will then be able to beat teams like Sauber, Merc and others. Doesn't sound fair to me that teams who put a lot of effort, passion and money into their car take the short straw just because somebody else without any knowledge or experience is able/willing to buy a car. Or will there be any restrictions concerning performance?

[jab]

Ah but it isn't as easy as just buying a good car and expecting to do well. If you think about it, Toro Rosso effectively have a customer Red Bull and they're not doing that brilliantly at the moment - it was only when the Ferrari engine was that much better than the Renault that they've been better than the big boys' team. So if some rich bloke just bought 2 Red Bulls, he'd have to put together a decent team to do reasonably well. It would still require an element of seriousness about it, although it would be far easier to step up to F1 (and so it should be)

What I'd like to see is if it was brought in that a constructor is allowed to have a maximum of 4 cars on the grid, i.e. 1 works team and 1 customer team (or 2 customer teams if it's someone like Dallara or Lola). However, I'd also open up the rules by allowing 1 car teams, or maybe even allowing 3 or 4 car teams as well (then it would be Ferrari's tough luck if they choose to do this and don't earn any money from selling to customers)

Another thing I've thought about is allowing customer cars but only 1 year old cars can be sold, as Super Aguri did (and they did OK with that). With the rule above about various team sizes, that would mean each constructor is allowed 2 current cars and 2 1 year old cars on the grid. However, there are so many rule changes every year, I'm not sure it would be possible - yes, it wasn't so difficult to convert a 2008-spec car into a 2009-spec car, but how would you convert a 2009-spec car into a 2010-spec car with the changes to the fuel tanks?

[Dead-Eye]

Originally Posted by pannenmann

I'm not so sure about that whole customer car thing. What if RBR decides to sell their car to the one who offers most? Sure a team that is supported by some wealthy guy will then be able to beat teams like Sauber, Merc and others. Doesn't sound fair to me that teams who put a lot of effort, passion and money into their car take the short straw just because somebody else without any knowledge or experience is able/willing to buy a car. Or will there be any restrictions concerning performance?

Nobody without any knowledge or experience is going to get the running of an F1 team right, unless they have a massive amount of luck. And if they do - what's wrong with that?

@jab: Don't like the year-old car idea. As you said, rule changes are a problem, plus you put a two class system into the rules which is, in my opinion, never a good idea for F1. DTM is a good example for this: The old cars are either backmarkers or have to be artificially legislated into competitiveness. I don't really want to see that.

[Chatters]

So, is this thread about the new teams, or customer cars? I'll just discuss both.

New teams- I honestly don't think you can expect too much from them this year. If they survive until next year they will all have had as much time as all the other teams to prepare their 2011 car, and will have a solid year of data under their belts, which keep in mind is only 1 year less then what the current teams have on the current generation of F1 cars.

I don't know why people expect them to get closer to the leaders as the season goes on- Every single team on the grid is still developing their car as much as Lotus, Virgin and HRT. It is worth noting that since Bahrain the teams (especially Lotus) have picked up their pace a little compared to the established teams, something which no doubt will give them a bit of happiness at their respective factories.

It may have been a year since these teams were granted entry into F1 but keep in mind none of them have ever raced at such an elite level before, Virgin didn't even use a windtunnel for their car, and HRT were still preparing their second car on the Friday of Round 1. It would be disappointing to see any of them drop out at the end of this year, as they may prove to be a better package in 2011, with some data available to help them. Keep in mind too, for many of the team personnel, engineers, and drivers of these teams, this year will have been the first year they've visited certain circuits, and certainly the first in an F1 car. And for Bernie Ecclestone to publicly slam them like he has on more then one occasion will not be helping their chances at gaining sponsorship from groups interested in dipping their marketing toe into Formula 1.

Keep in mind, too, that arguably their nearest rival, Sauber, has been in Formula 1 for decades, but all it takes is a bad call in the fundamental design of the car to make it off the pace (see Honda 2007/8, Ferrari & McLaren in the first part of last year) and only now are we seeing some speed out of the C29.

Customer cars- In a word, yes. I can't understand why individuals such as Frank Williams are against such an idea. I think for Formula 1 to survive healthily teams should be able to sell chassis to other teams. I can understand why some teams are against it, as they don't want to lose a competitive advantage they've created by selling other teams their cars, but at the same time, surely something could be arranged where teams buy the plans to a car for the season, and then are left to design upgrades themselves? It will keep competition healthy among teams and I don't believe costs will rise significantly if such an idea is introduced. We lost an established team in other formulae, Prodrive, from entering F1 because of the ban on customer cars. If teams are allowed to sell other teams their engines why must the FIA insist on not allowing them to sell their car designs?

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Chatters

Customer cars- In a word, yes. I can't understand why individuals such as Frank Williams are against such an idea.

Imagine that you've spent a good 80 mil on your car, and then 'Johnny come lately' gets his hands on a couple of new Ferrari/McLaren/RedBull chassis that are quick out of the box, no updates needed.

[ensign14]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

We do need customer cars. We would get so much more interest in the sport from new teams and a more closed up grid.

Why it is a problem when, in the early days, it was completely normal is beyond me.

I think it's because the customer cars would have a gigantic unfair financial advantage. You get your Berniemoney, and instead of using it to run an entire car-building operation, you pop along to someone like Renault, plonk a few euros down for a year-old model, toddle along at the back with a well-funded chap like Can Artam doing fantasy camp, and walk away a multi-millionaire within a couple of years.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by ensign14

I think it's because the customer cars would have a gigantic unfair financial advantage. You get your Berniemoney, and instead of using it to run an entire car-building operation, you pop along to someone like Renault, plonk a few euros down for a year-old model, toddle along at the back with a well-funded chap like Can Artam doing fantasy camp, and walk away a multi-millionaire within a couple of years.

Well, that's a possibility, but what's to stop there being two-level BernieMoney? with more going to self build teams?

[Grandpa_Rob]

Why not allow new teams to test during their first season to bring them into contention with established teams.

[jab]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Imagine that you've spent a good 80 mil on your car, and then 'Johnny come lately' gets his hands on a couple of new Ferrari/McLaren/RedBull chassis that are quick out of the box, no updates needed.

Yeah but because of the customer car rules in general, Williams could recoup that 80 mil by selling more cars at a profit

However, what Williams are scared of is no one being willing to buy their cars because they're not good enough, which is their problem if you ask me

[I Rosputnik]

I am concerned about the future of the new teams. I personally would have them testing this year, and having them enter full time next year.

But that would of never happen, would it?

I applaud how far Lotus have come, and Virgin haven't done terribly for themselves -Just need to take themselves more seriously-.

It's HRT I'm worried about. You can't have 3 drivers sharing two cars. I personally reckon someone should buy them out.

I just find Ferrari's elitism towards independents irritating, just because they can't get another car.

[Crispy12]

Originally Posted by Grandpa_Rob

Why not allow new teams to test during their first season to bring them into contention with established teams.

I partly agree with this idea. Especially with the 107% rule coming in next year. If another new team joins the grid next year they could have real trouble getting the car up to speed with only practice and qualifying to give them data. I also can't see them being around long since no sponsor in his right mind is going to get behind a team that's possibly not racing.

On the other hand, I also see David Coulthard's point at the beginning of the year when he said "Formula 1 isn't a finishing school". If your not up to speed and you can't cope with the speed, development rate and financial clout required then you should go elsewhere.

[Woolley]

If you don't allow new teams in, what happens when old ones drop out?

[Crispy12]

I'm all in favour of new teams. I'd love to see a 13 team grid but I also want to see teams that are up to standard. I don't want to see teams struggling round at the back for a year then going bankrupt and leaving after a year. Teams like Lotus have come prepared and as Bernie says, add value to the sport.

I think new teams should be allowed and in fact encouraged but the FIA need to be more rigorous when investigating a potential new teams viability.

[Chatters]

I hope all the new teams, especially Lotus and Virgin, continue next year, as they will no doubt be more competitive.

However, HRT, who are unable to develop even their current car, do they have plans, or are they even working on a 2011 car?

[bella]

here's something purely from a human resources point of view that may or may not be a valid contribution.

i have friends who have applied to work for virgin and lotus. virgin advertised with some vacancies, but way too soon since the present incumbants haven't finished their contracts with the team. hardly a vote of confidence. they never sent an acknowledgement letter or email. lotus on the other hand sent a polite personal acknowledgement email within 2 days of receiving an application, explaining they would be in contact "shortly" from someone with a job title and contact details.

i think that's a fine demonstration of the differences between lotus, which has evidently been set up as a f1 team, and virgin, who have come from a proper motorsport team and just expanded quickly. same timescales to prepare for the task of f1, different approaches.

[fourWheelDrift]

Originally Posted by Crispy12

I think new teams should be allowed and in fact encouraged but the FIA need to be more rigorous when investigating a potential new teams viability.

If there is competition for the places then clearly there has to be a selection process to choose the most viable team to fill the place. If there is a vacant place for a team and only one applicant then unless they are unsafe they should be allowed the entry, if they fail, they fail.

Thats how sport works - survival of the fittest. If HRT (or any other team for that matter) fail that's not a failure for F1 it's a failure for HRT and does not diminish F1 in any way, in fact it highlights what a difficult challenge F1 is and the magnitude of what the successful teams are achieving.

I have no problems with any of the teams currently competing, I know HRT may well disappear but that's racing, having these three new teams in F1 and seeing who can swim and how fast the others sink is part of the interest.

[jab]

Originally Posted by Woolley

If you don't allow new teams in, what happens when old ones drop out?

If you think about it, though, before Toyota went, the last F1 team that built its own cars to drop out completely was Arrows back in 2002. All the others since were bought out and reborn, apart from Super Aguri who were a customer team anyway

If you look at the current line-up, 9 of the 12 teams are capable of building competitive cars right now. Take out Toro Rosso who would almost certainly revert to customer status if they had the option, and replace them with Lotus, and you've still got 9 teams who would probably remain constructors. That's more than enough for now

I would suggest situation critical would be when there are 6 or 7 constructors left and a couple of those not looking great, so F1 has breathing room if they want to go ahead with it now. There's the difference compared to last year, where F1 was on the verge of dipping below 10 teams for the first time in a long time

What you could do is reserve so many spots on the list for constructors and then use the customers as a top-up, and as suggested, use financial incentives to encourage teams to build their own cars - I'd suggest adding a teams championship alongside the constructors championship and shift the prize money, albeit still keeping most of the prize money on the constructors championship

Ultimately, for me, the most important thing is having cars on the grid, regardless of how they're built. I can totally see why there would need to be safeguards against the number of constructors dropping too low, but I think it's a risk worth taking due to the potential benefits - customer cars would mean a full grid of closely-matched cars every time, which is the pretty much the holy grail of the organisers

[porman]

What drives me batty is that Bernie still has so much power. He was working with Max when the whole idea was brought about of having the additional teams. Now that it seems that having them isn't as lucrative as what was once thought Bernie is ready to make their lives even harder. You can never take much stock in what Bernie says. He reminds me in many ways of a used car salesman.

Get rid of the Leprechaun!

[Sodemo]

Its rare that this happens, but I totally agree with Bernie on this one.

Lotus is the only team which has done a good job and progressed as people were hoping. They also have the history and appeal that F1 teams should have. The FIA totally shot themselves in the foot when they chose the new teams for 2010. Campos and USF1 should never have been chosen. By rights, and by history, prestige, experience and technical know-how, those grid slots should have gone to NTechnology, Prodrive and Lola. By not choosing these teams, the FIA made a massive blunder in my view.

[bella]

i feel like the fia should make wannabe-f1 teams run a gp2 or gp3 team for a few years first and achieve a certain degree of success so they can prove they at least have the backing and basic team structure to understand what they're undertaking...