Gordon Kirby, The Way it is. The ALMS searches for a new direction

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by TWK

For Jag, and others who get on the "privateers forever," and "manufacturers are evil" trip (sorry if that overstates your point of view).

Here's dj4money, and it's a good point:



Add Dyson in, and what do you have? ALMS 2010 - a disaster.

Let's face it. They are not worth watching.

I wouldn't quite say complete disaster, but....

[davehenrie]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

It essentally happened in all but name in '07-08.

And yet, after what was one of the most phenomenal ALMS seasons, they felt compelled to rein in the P2 class and that sealed the fate of the past 3 seasons. The Spyder vs the Acura vs the R10 was a magical year. About the only time prior to that season that matched the intensity was when the Dyson AER Lolas went toe to toe with the rules reduced R8.

I have to say, basing this on my foggy memory, the most enjoyable race I can recall was Mosport in 07 or 08 when Franchitti in the Acura was chasing the Penske Spyder and the way those two cars cut through traffic was amazing. Heck, I don't even remember who won that year, I just remember that first 45 minutes of blitzkrieg racing.

dh

[6157]

Originally Posted by TWK

For Jag, and others who get on the "privateers forever," and "manufacturers are evil" trip (sorry if that overstates your point of view).

Here's dj4money, and it's a good point:



Add Dyson in, and what do you have? ALMS 2010 - a disaster.

Let's face it. They are not worth watching.

Since it's not worth your time to watch, when can we expect the closure of Murphy the Bear and LTC?

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by dj4monie

I wouldn't quite say complete disaster, but....

Yes, but-- for those who say Nascrap, and I have not watched a NASCAR race since '94, NASCAR did manage to get the manufactuers of Dodge and Toyota in, while Chevy and Ford spend money for competitive engines; whereas IMSA has watched Cadillac and Dodge boys , amongst others, go bye-bye.

Maybe Dan Panoz should have a secret summit meeting with John Bishop and ask him how to stop the IMSA from going into the toilet.
Obviously Bishop has no magic potion, but he had a better run than Panoz has.

[ubrben]

Originally Posted by dj4monie

Based on what? Has the cost of racing a GT2 increased to such a degree it rivals running a competitive LMP1 car? Hardly.

The money spent is in proportion to the prestige of winning, not the physical cost of putting two race cars on track plus the crew to run them.

If it's more valuable to win in GT (by making it the overall winner) sponsors will pay more and the teams will test more.

Hell, if IMSA want to restrict test days but winning in GT meant overall an overall win, I'd have a privateer satellite team doing testing for me in Europe. I'd be on a suspension rig every week.

Motorsport budgets for factory teams, or teams competing to win overall aren't dictated by simply hardware and personnel costs for the race events.

Ben

[JAG]

Originally Posted by TWK

For Jag, and others who get on the "privateers forever," and "manufacturers are evil" trip (sorry if that overstates your point of view).

Here's dj4money, and it's a good point:



Add Dyson in, and what do you have? ALMS 2010 - a disaster.

Let's face it. They are not worth watching.

Manufactuers are essential to the sport but for some time they have either concentrated on Le Mans or selected the best races from the LMS and ALMS.

The ILMC is making official what manufactuers in both P1 and GT2 have been pushing for and will give the best representation yet of what Le Mans represents.

The future for the LMS and ALMS is semi-factory efforts like ORECA Peugeot and Champion Audi plus regular privateers.

The ALMS has been the best sportscar series for the past decade, even during the past couple of seasons the GT battles have more than made up for the lacking LMP field.

The LMPC and GTC classes have brought new teams into the series and it really isn't a great leap of faith to see some of these teams moving up in class.

If it all comes crashing down someone is going to have to build a series from scratch as Grand-Am doesn't fit the bill so why not learn from past mistakes and build on what you have.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by JAG

Manufactuers are essential to the sport but for some time they have either concentrated on Le Mans or selected the best races from the LMS and ALMS.

The ILMC is making official what manufactuers in both P1 and GT2 have been pushing for and will give the best representation yet of what Le Mans represents.

The future for the LMS and ALMS is semi-factory efforts like ORECA Peugeot and Champion Audi plus regular privateers.

The ALMS has been the best sportscar series for the past decade, even during the past couple of seasons the GT battles have more than made up for the lacking LMP field.

The LMPC and GTC classes have brought new teams into the series and it really isn't a great leap of faith to see some of these teams moving up in class.

If it all comes crashing down someone is going to have to build a series from scratch as Grand-Am doesn't fit the bill so why not learn from past mistakes and build on what you have.

Yes, manufacturers are essential to the sport and the ALMS. Without manufacturer money there is no ALMS.

Perhaps a couple of manufacturers have asked for a World Championship. Perhaps they've asked for rocket cars. The prudent manager, does what is best for the long term viability of the sport and genre, not pandering to a couple of manufacturers, for short term gain.

If the ILMC is where manufacturers go from now on, the ALMS will be dead. Semi-factory entries don't bring sponsorship budget to the series.

If the ALMS dies, Sebring, Road Atlanta and Mosport could end up either running ILMC or more probably Grand Am.

Moving up isn't a large leap of faith, just a large leap of funding.

Maybe sitting in Europe you don't care what happens over here, but I really don't think you understand the business side in North America at all, and that has been demonstrated repeatedly.

[Aysedasi]

I don't think the Europeans should necessarily be criticised for not understanding the business side in N. America. I certainly don't. It doesn't necessarily mean I'm completely disinterested in it though - if there is a likely impact on what racing we get to see, then we clearly should know. Unfortunately the disagreements here and elsewhere on the board at the moment don't always help us to see the wood for the trees. A simplistic view, but I suspect one shared by many members here - which is probably why many of the rank and file sportscar afficianados here (not all of whom are in Europe) don't post much in this and other similar threads at the moment.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

I don't think the Europeans should necessarily be criticised for not understanding the business side in N. America. I certainly don't. It doesn't necessarily mean I'm completely disinterested in it though - if there is a likely impact on what racing we get to see, then we clearly should know. Unfortunately the disagreements here and elsewhere on the board at the moment don't always help us to see the wood for the trees. A simplistic view, but I suspect one shared by many members here - which is probably why many of the rank and file sportscar afficianados here (not all of whom are in Europe) don't post much in this and other similar threads at the moment.

I understand some people don't understand the business side. Having said that, some people have had it explained to them multiple times, and still don't get it...

[chernaudi]

Truth is that there are just as many smart business people in Europe as there are in America. Even in the slumping economy, the Dutch in general have enjoyed a very good standard of living, for example. The Dutch have always been intelligent, analylitical business people and traders.

Why has VAG(Audi in particular) squezzed surpluses while other record massive deficits? Why has PSA/Peugeot not gone bankrupt? Enough smart business people are calling the shots.

I'll give you this-Audi spent $15 million to run the ALMS in 2008, a similar amount to do the LMS the same year, and spent who knows that to run Le Mans this year. And both Audi and Peugeot have reportedly spent nearly $150 million a piece to do Le Mans this year and everything in the run up to it. If Audi spent that in 2008 to win Le Mans, then the $30 million spent to run ALMS/LMS is in theory a drop in the ocean.

That, and auto racing doesn't really sell cars anymore. Touring car racing was poplular because of "win on Sunday, sell on monday", NASCAR the same, and sportscar racing, even prototypes, the same. That theory was even applicable to F1 for a time when there was good marketing to be had from winning races for the brand.

Now, motorsports is basically a form of sports entertainment. It's not exactly like pro wrestling(which originated the phrase "sports entertainment"), but racing is more a form of entertainment, and even though car makers(like Audi and Peugeot, to name two) still heavily use motorsports in marketing, it's what they do at the manufacturers' midways and promoting races and such that's the big deal as far as marketing.

That being said, Audi still to an extent stumps the "win on Sunday, sell on Monday" theory to the point where Wolfgang Ullrich almost considers "F1" and "NASCAR" to be swearwords. However, Audi has proven that you don't need to race-or at least race regularly-to sell cars.

Racing is now about what can it do for the manufacturers as far as marketing, and if car makers see stuff they don't like(like promoting a racing series out of their own pockets and the series isn't pulling its weight), they'll pull out when the corporate board asks them to.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

I understand some people don't understand the business side. Having said that, some people have had it explained to them multiple times, and still don't get it...

True enough, but that's life and this is just a discussion board......

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by ubrben

The money spent is in proportion to the prestige of winning, not the physical cost of putting two race cars on track plus the crew to run them.

If it's more valuable to win in GT (by making it the overall winner) sponsors will pay more and the teams will test more.

Hell, if IMSA want to restrict test days but winning in GT meant overall an overall win, I'd have a privateer satellite team doing testing for me in Europe. I'd be on a suspension rig every week.

Motorsport budgets for factory teams, or teams competing to win overall aren't dictated by simply hardware and personnel costs for the race events.

Ben

If GT was made the headlining class then you would see additional investment.

But I would do largely what's been done. Most of the manufacturers are partners with the teams.

Flying Lizard buys cars and brings funding. Porsche provides drivers and technical support. This is the same setup with Ferrari and in fact Tony Dowe loved the Customer Service he received from Corse Cliente better than he received from Porsche Motorsports NA.

If you keep this dynamic in the series with it will keep cost under control. BMW is willing too and planning on selling its GT2 M3. It would be easier once it meets FIA approval. Once it does, its pace at Spa 24 has served notice that its on pace with the front runners and is a car capable of winning.

I don't know if GM Racing is going to go down that path with the GT2 version of the Corvette. They could, its based on the Production car.

This is why bring GT3 online is important. There are cars available to racers built and engineered by the factories. This eliminates much of cost in racing these days which would be setup and testing technology.

If there's no outburst from the teams involved or thinking about becoming involved in the series, then I say push forward with GT3. I don't understand the concern for Rich People with deep pockets. You don't have backyard operations in the ALMS and frankly the results would be disastrous if they did.

At the end of the day, what do we want? Forget the historical and traditional ties to Sports Car Racing. Do you want a Professional series with respect across the board or do you want a Pro-Am series that's not quite a laughing stock but not taken as seriously as it should be.

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Racing is now about what can it do for the manufacturers as far as marketing, and if car makers see stuff they don't like(like promoting a racing series out of their own pockets and the series isn't pulling its weight), they'll pull out when the corporate board asks them to.

True, Racing for most companies is apart of the Marketing Budget and not the Engineering Budget.

So many forms of racing don't allow what's already in production cars, explaining it away as "its too expensive". I always thought if the companies really do want to "race what we sell" meaning using production cars and engines, then Indy Car using conventional wisdom is flying in the face of the obvious trend in motorsport.

It could be argued that because short term gains are more valued in America than Europe, that this mindset also hurts things like motorsport that depend more on money than on human capital.

One of these days we as FANS need to demand Motorsport Entertainment take a page out of the book created by MLB, the NBA or NFL.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Yes, manufacturers are essential to the sport and the ALMS. Without manufacturer money there is no ALMS.

Perhaps a couple of manufacturers have asked for a World Championship. Perhaps they've asked for rocket cars. The prudent manager, does what is best for the long term viability of the sport and genre, not pandering to a couple of manufacturers, for short term gain.

If the ILMC is where manufacturers go from now on, the ALMS will be dead. Semi-factory entries don't bring sponsorship budget to the series.

If the ALMS dies, Sebring, Road Atlanta and Mosport could end up either running ILMC or more probably Grand Am.

Moving up isn't a large leap of faith, just a large leap of funding.

Maybe sitting in Europe you don't care what happens over here, but I really don't think you understand the business side in North America at all, and that has been demonstrated repeatedly.

An international series that puts Le Mans racings best foot forward is not short term thinking it's the obvious way forward.

Nothing has been more detrimental to the sport amongst the wider public in recent years than manufactuers avoiding each other with the only guarantee they'll front up being at Le Mans itself.

For the past decade the ALMS has benefited from European factory teams such as Joest Audi, Schnitzer BMW, ORECA Dodge, Prodrive Aston Martin and plenty of privateers like Drayson, Zytek, Creation etc. who've spiced up races.

You can't be expecting Peugeot or Aston Martin to run full ALMS seasons while even Audi cannot race exclusively in NA at the expense of Europe and Asia.

If more NA manufactuers and importers' followed the lead of Cheverolet, BMW, Panoz and previously Acura the series would be in fine shape.

Likewise isn't it about time some of the NA big players like Penske and Riley stepped forward to run a car or two and help the series grow or are they content to see all of NA racing controlled by NASCAR?

By contrast ORECA have their hands in all sorts of pies with major manufactuers in major series but still invested in a sportscar program, became a constructor and sought out manufactuer support.

If major manufactuer and big sponsors are required what better place to start the search than right at home.

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by JAG

An international series that puts Le Mans racings best foot forward is not short term thinking it's the obvious way forward.

For the past decade the ALMS has benefited from European factory teams such as Joest Audi, Schnitzer BMW, ORECA Dodge, Prodrive Aston Martin and plenty of privateers like Drayson, Zytek, Creation etc. who've spiced up races.

You can't be expecting Peugeot or Aston Martin to run full ALMS seasons while even Audi cannot race exclusively in North America at the expense of Europe and Asia.

If more North American manufactuers and 'importers' followed the lead of Cheverolet, BMW, Panoz and previously Acura the series would be in fine shape.

Likewise isn't it about time some of the North American big players like Penske and Riley stepped forward to run a car or two and help the series grow or are they content to see all of North American racing controlled by NASCAR?

By contrast ORECA have their hands in all sorts of pies with major manufactuers in major series but still invested in a sportscar program, became a constructor and sought out manufactuer support.

If major manufactuer and big sponsors are required what better place to start the search than right at home.

LMP2 under the new rules has the potential to tie in regional manufacturers.

I doubt you would have much direct marketing, but I would say Roush-Yates would like to be apart of that market as much as GM Powertrain or Katech does.

I think you can keep LMP1 the Halo Class as desired by the ACO and the changes they have made might finally equalize the performance between diesel and petrol.

[JAG]

If ORECA could sell half a dozen LMPC's last season wouldn't you think Riley could make a profit on P2's?

Get in at the start of the class and they could become the dominant manufactuer as in GA, particularly as they know what works on NA circuits.

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by JAG

If ORECA could sell half a dozen LMPC's last season wouldn't you think Riley could make a profit on P2's?

Get in at the start of the class and they could become the dominant manufactuer as in GA, particularly as they know what works on NA circuits.

Riley has local track knowledge as far as car design is concerned. They could sell cars, but if these teams want to go to Europe and Le Mans, I think going with ORECA or Lola would be a wiser choice. The R&S cars have never been that effective on the longer, faster nature of European circuits, again regional knowledge is an advantage.

LMP2 could be full of interesting sound tracks next year, if LMP2 2011 is embraced fully (10-12 cars). I think G-Oil is happy and if Gunnar and Elton can get around Tucker in the Championship, I would say its very possible not only to continue but to upgrade to LMP2. Gunnar has connections to Ford and Multimatic, I wouldn't be shocked if they are the de-facto Ford LMP2 team...

[gttouring]

why not open up the non-ACO prototypes to a new Can-Am class? any chassis in the last 5 years or a new tube frame and any engine (turbos are stuck on smaller engine or 3 liters or less.) and 2000lbs there clean sheet and any car can have a can-am variant a Porsche lmp2 spyder with a turbo flat six? or a big 7liter flat 12?
if it is so obvious to all the fans why do sanctioning bodies have such a hard time with this?

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by gttouring

why not open up the non-ACO prototypes to a new Can-Am class? any chassis in the last 5 years or a new tube frame and any engine (turbos are stuck on smaller engine or 3 liters or less.) and 2000lbs there clean sheet and any car can have a can-am variant a Porsche lmp2 spyder with a turbo flat six? or a big 7liter flat 12?
if it is so obvious to all the fans why do sanctioning bodies have such a hard time with this?

New Can-Am? Me and Bob went over this already (in 2006 I think) it would likely kill somebody if you had true 1960's style "Open" rules.

It would also be horribly expensive. How is using an older chassis better, email Ben Collins over at Racecar Engineering. How effective are both Intersports and Autocon's 5 year old cars?

An unlimited 3.4L V8 engine would make 800-900hp N/A if you can employ some F1 technology, again horribly expensive. The "Flat-Six" is low, but wide, besides reliability I don't believe people will use it as a LMP engine. If it was ideal, Porsche would have built the Sypder around the engine.

The reason why Porsche doesn't build a racing car around the Cayman (but might be forced too) is they don't wanna cannibalize sales of the classic 911, not when they can put a duck tail spoiler and neo-classic type Porsche Alloys on a 997/911, make it limited production and sell every one of them....

WSC and Open Top LMP's is about as close as your going to get to a modern interpretation of a Can Am car.

Aren't the new cars faster anyway? I thought the last three years at both Road Atlanta (an old Cam Am circuit slowed down since), Road America and Mosport, the single lap track record as been broken by the Audi R10 or one of the Porsche Spyders?

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by JAG

An international series that puts Le Mans racings best foot forward is not short term thinking it's the obvious way forward.

Does an International Series, that has no stops in North America, still have the desired impact?

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Does an International Series, that has no stops in North America, still have the desired impact?

No, which is why WTCC and World GT1 are looking to bring their series to America and all the car companies want a race in the US despite Bernie not caring too much.

For the ACO it would be suicide for them to have their International Series not tie to well attended International races inside America. They should consider themselves fortunate to not have to build in hype, promotion or a fan base.

Which up to this point have done such a poor job with their own series...

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by gttouring

why not open up the non-ACO prototypes to a new Can-Am class? any chassis in the last 5 years or a new tube frame and any engine (turbos are stuck on smaller engine or 3 liters or less.) and 2000lbs there clean sheet and any car can have a can-am variant a Porsche lmp2 spyder with a turbo flat six? or a big 7liter flat 12?
if it is so obvious to all the fans why do sanctioning bodies have such a hard time with this?

Actually get rid of the aero aids that have made the cornering speeds high, (this is where lower lap times have come from) and make the minimum weight high enough, (weight based on displacement) and it would work in the US, at least till the novelty wore off. (The paranoid safety czars are the real problem)

In the US though, a GT/sedan series is the main thing might get the gear-heads back in the stands.
Rules that reflect the original IMSA and SCCA, and stay as far as possible away from FIA/ACO clusterf---s. (Although the FIA group 4 GTs would be sweet)
If Panoz wanted to get some genuine Detroit interest, he should run an experimental Sedan class, at some races, that mimics the original Trans-Am and see who shows up.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

If Panoz wanted to get some genuine Detroit interest, he should run an experimental Sedan class, at some races, that mimics the original Trans-Am and see who shows up.

I agree that a Muscle Car series as an undercard would be a good move, Camaro vs Mustang vs Challenger





L.P.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

I agree that a Muscle Car series as an undercard would be a good move, Camaro vs Mustang vs Challenger
L.P.

Not as a tube-frame under card, rather as per original sedan rules, modified production cars running with all the other cars as they once did at Daytona and Sebring.
It could evolve into a separate series, but first Panoz has to see if Detroit, or at least Chevy, Dodge and Ford loyalists are interested.
An experimental class at the big races would answer that.

[I Rosputnik]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

I agree that a Muscle Car series as an undercard would be a good move, Camaro vs Mustang vs Challenger





L.P.

That would be epic.