Historic 24 hours race (UK 2012)

[midgetman]

The MN article intimated that the 2CV race would be dropped in favour of the historic one.

Sorry, not trying to give away any secrets but simply relating what I read in public

[midgetman]

Originally Posted by RTH

If anyone succeeds in the future in securing a 24 hr race at Snetterton for historic sports cars ( I was involved in 8 Willhires) bear in mind if it is to be a success ....
We should have a really good 24hr race in this country but they do take years to build a reputation and following.Don't hold your breath.

It's being so cheerful as keeps me going Lighten up! If we all said it can't be done, we'd still be living in caves and wearing animal skins!

[RTH]

I am certainly not saying it cannot be done, it is the balance of probability given the facts in front of us based on experience. Best to be realist, then if something good does turn up it is a bonus that you can feel genuinely pleased about.
I would love to see a 24hr race for historic sports cars at Snetterton with a capacity grid if it was affordable we would be a part of it..

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by RTH

I am certainly not saying it cannot be done, it is the balance of probability given the facts in front of us based on experience.

some peeps thought similar about the 6 hr but a couple of people made it happen...

Originally Posted by RTH

I would love to see a 24hr race for historic sports cars at Snetterton with a capacity grid if it was affordable we would be a part of it..

good point - how much would you pay to enter a 24 hr clubman's race, i.e. what do you call 'affordable'?

[johngee]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

how much would you pay to enter a 24 hr clubman's race, i.e. what do you call 'affordable'?

A very good question! Can we have some anwers please........ because if everybody says "about the same as the 360MRC 6 hours"......dream on.

[Peter Mallett]

Probably said this before but a 24hr race is a big leap from 6hrs. Its a brand new engine, gearbox, axle etc. A 6hrs race is effectivly a season in one afternoon, (i run my engine for 9hrs max before rebuild) but a 24hrs is a whole car.

So the people you want to attract have to have the wherewithal to run spare cars effectively. That is categorically not a club racer. We can't compare to the Willhire (apart from hours) because that was basically production cars. Historics don't run to those kind of regs (I assume this is aimed at the pre 70 or even 65 car), they run to certain levels of tune that means they cost a lot to put together. (In time and effort if not cash).

I think the Le Mans Classic recognises this and runs in sessions for 24hrs not one continuous race.

So, not to put too fine a point on it, unless this is run for late 70's up to 90s cars, there's little hope of it flying at any reasonable pricing level. And of course those years aren't considered historic.

[RTH]

An event is a success for organiser and competitor and hence the spectators when the cost to the competitors produces a capacity grid which utilises facilities to the maximum.
In 1984 the Willhire 24hrs entry was £400. If you completed 75% of the race winners number of laps you got your entry fee back in full at the end. There were 76 teams entered. In 1985 entry fee was £500. Willhire put in some money to reduce entry fees to get people to enter, but that was all prize money was a token amount of no consequence. There was quite good spectator numbers I do not know who got that at the time then.
In 1993 Nicola Foulston ordered the rental charged by Brands Hatch Leisure (who owned Snetterton) to the BRSCC to be raised by £20,000 for the event 3 days needed. The BRSCC raised the entry fee to £2500. The year before 38 starters were selected from the 50 entries on variety and quality.
As a direct result of the price increase at the closing date in 1993 only 13 entries had been received and the race was then cancelled for ever as it turned out.
BHL priced out competitors and killed the event at a stroke, no doubt about that whatsoever we all pulled out. These were in the main people who had done the event before and well knew their other costs.

Equally the organisers have to frame the technical eligibility and the sporting and technical regulations in such a way that costs are contained to a point where you can get a full entry this is vitaly important and why the Willhire was for strictly production spec cars with road tyres. Otherwise they knew it could not work

A full grid is the test of complete success for all sides, maybe that is no longer possible in this event ? If so those taking part will be paying for the empty grid places as well or the organisers stand it and may make a loss.

It is not a bit of good saying people just have to pay whatever it costs because in the real world they just will not enter if they feel it is beyond them.It is a very difficult balance at the start.

[MartinSmith]

Sorry but....is this a Bobby Ewing moment???

lol...for those of you who dont know what im refering to, the makers of Dallas killed off Patrick Duffy's charactor Bobby and continued with Dallas for two years...then wanted to bring him back in it....so made out that it was all a terrible dream that his wife had dreamed and we had all watched for TWO YEARS!!!


I could have sworn I left this conversation two years ago?...lol

Go for it

[johngee]

One of the funniest posts on 10/10ths.......because it's true!

[courageous]

Given all the problems with noise curfews & car rebuilds, maybe you should think outside of the box...


What if you ran 24 hours over 3 days?
If you got an early or late in the year date, you could still run into darkness (like GT/Britar etc... do)

Day 1
0900-1000 Practice/Qual
1000-1600 Race (6hrs)
1600-1800 Night Practice

Day 2 & 3
0900-1800 Race (9hrs on each day)

Have parc ferme overnight & just consider it as you would a red flag situation.

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by johngee

A very good question! Can we have some anwers please........ because if everybody says "about the same as the 360MRC 6 hours"......dream on.

£2.5K
can I have it for 2k if I enter now please?

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

....... We can't compare to the Willhire (apart from hours) because that was basically production cars. Historics don't run to those kind of regs ........

Peter you know a bit about Bs, what state of tune was the one that did 84 hours round the 'Ring in '66 and won outright? Or the ones that won their class at Le Mans 24 two years running?

[johngee]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

£2.5K
can I have it for 2k if I enter now please?

David. Since you're the only person (so far!) to answer the question - you're in the right ballpark but that would be for a guaranteed 40+ cars and money up front - no refunds .

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by RTH

An event is a success for organiser and competitor and hence the spectators when the cost to the competitors produces a capacity grid which utilises facilities to the maximum.
In 1984 the Willhire 24hrs entry was £400. If you completed 75% of the race winners number of laps you got your entry fee back in full at the end. There were 76 teams entered. In 1985 entry fee was £500. Willhire put in some money to reduce entry fees to get people to enter, but that was all prize money was a token amount of no consequence. There was quite good spectator numbers I do not know who got that at the time then.
In 1993 Nicola Foulston ordered the rental charged by Brands Hatch Leisure (who owned Snetterton) to the BRSCC to be raised by £20,000 for the event 3 days needed. The BRSCC raised the entry fee to £2500. The year before 38 starters were selected from the 50 entries on variety and quality.
As a direct result of the price increase at the closing date in 1993 only 13 entries had been received and the race was then cancelled for ever as it turned out.
BHL priced out competitors and killed the event at a stroke, no doubt about that whatsoever we all pulled out. These were in the main people who had done the event before and well knew their other costs.

Equally the organisers have to frame the technical eligibility and the sporting and technical regulations in such a way that costs are contained to a point where you can get a full entry this is vitaly important and why the Willhire was for strictly production spec cars with road tyres. Otherwise they knew it could not work

A full grid is the test of complete success for all sides, maybe that is no longer possible in this event ? If so those taking part will be paying for the empty grid places as well or the organisers stand it and may make a loss.

It is not a bit of good saying people just have to pay whatever it costs because in the real world they just will not enter if they feel it is beyond them.It is a very difficult balance at the start.

Welcome to my world

If there were 76 teams there lies your reasons for its success and its now certain doom...and we have had this debate before but for the benefit of those who cannot be bothered to do the math...

You cannot have 76 on the grid now, the circuit is licenced for 47, therefore you have lost 29 entries, but the circuit still needs paying

Secondly in 1985 (sounds like the A team intro! lol) 500 quid would be the equivelant of 1059.22 now, so 76 times that YES, Id do it tomorrow and you would get some money back by all means 47 times that and you are in NEGATIVE country so

Welcome to my world

Ive done this before but I will do it again for you

How much would £20 pounds in 1981 be worth today? (you could say "20 quid"" if you wanted to be funny...but realistically...its worth £9.44 ...less than HALF of its face value then )

Just to confirm....it would cost more than the £50,000 you refer to in your post to put this kind of event on UNLESS you were MSVR and you owned the circuit and there was nothing else on that day THEN its wooden dollars

The world, regardless of if we have or not, or indeed if we like it or not, has moved on considerably since 1981/2/3/4/5/6/7/8 or 9 it has moved on 20 years. and unfortunately as said before so has the cost of events.

I will state now very openly that I AM NOT IN A RUSH TO PUT ON A 24 HOUR RACE FOR HISTORICS, for several reasons but mainly Peter has mentioned one ITS A GREAT LEAP and all the talk in here and all the "We would be a part of it" I saw two years ago with a six hour race and we all know what happened there. Please, none of this is meant to offend anyone but it is one thing saying you are going to do a race, as I have found out, its another thing actually doing it .
I count the day as a success, not financially as the first running of ANYTHING is very rarely a commercial success, but we can look everyone in the eye and say we paid you and we can also look all the people on here in the eye and say "WE PUT IT ON FOR YOU...YOU ASKED FOR IT...IT WAS THERE FOR THE TAKING"

Every time there is a debate on here about this type of race, the same things are said, mainly by the same people (I admit...im one of them) and I draw the same conclusion.

My logic is that endurance racing is wonderful, I am an Endu junky, but, most in UK historics are not I think, everyone talks about the willhire but you are forgeting that it WASNT historics, it was production saloons of the day, it was a different beast to what you seem to wish you could have now....that is, a willhire for older cars...at older prices...no can do. Its not about people "outpricing" themselves hiking prices up, we had this debate as I said and incidently WHY should an oil company subsidise your racing?..or any other company subsidise your racing? yes its a bit of publicity and they will get PR from it if its sucessful, but, you are saying that "they can afford it" you sound like the very people who say that "all those lot that go racing are rich"....are they?
If you know about petrol you will know that the majority of the money you pay for it is TAX...you gonna ask David C for some sponsorship?. The barrels you refer to, just for reference have ELEVEN taxes on them before the come out of the ground and then VAT is charged on that, perhaps we can get HMRC down and see if they want hospitality in exchange for a late "self assesment"

We have spoken to MSV about a 24 hour yes we have, but, in honesty I think it would have to be for very late "Historics" upto mid 90's cars or you would have to run some relay...and we already have one of them,

If JT does it good luck to him, I wish him every success with it, but I think (and i can have an opinion) that it wont be so much JT as JP who wants to actually do it.

[zefarelly]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

I would also suggest the 2CV's are see as more environmentally sound and therefore more socially acceptable .

have you seen the Gauloises smoke pouring from the average Citroen?

we won't mention the cracked eggs and spilled fuel (read wine)

[Al Weyman]

Yeah and also they are probably the only historic car that will last the distance. Can't see an old CoCoTina or Chevy with tuned engine staying together for 24 hours can you?

For what its worth I agree with the above comments that it would have to be a race for modern maybe even new production cars on List 1a's then you may get a bit of manufacturer interest as well be a great opportunity to prove their cars reliability and fuel consumptions.

[Dan Friel]

What about running the event using a similar format to the Le Mans classic? More cars and less wear..

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

Peter you know a bit about Bs, what state of tune was the one that did 84 hours round the 'Ring in '66 and won outright? Or the ones that won their class at Le Mans 24 two years running?

We live in a somewhat different age. Next you'll be reminding me of the 1970 BOAC 1000 class win at Brands.

For a start trying to run on unleaded fuel for a constant 24hrs (unleaded wasn't invented in 1965) even at 90% is likely to wear the head out on anything with a BL/BMC engine. Even those with hardened valve seats.

Second the works supported cars threw away their transissions etc. after an event, the works sometimes (as we know) threw the entire car away (less reg no).

We aren't talking here about disposable vehicles, we are talking about cars that people want to continue racing after an event. Engine and transmission rebuilds are one thing but carrying spare engines/gearboxes/axles etc. so that the car can be quickly rebuilt after a 24hr stint, is a bit more like a professional exercise.

I'm not against it per se but logistically this would be way beyond my means and I consider myself to be reasonably well funded for racing (when I have the time).

[RTH]

If you read my earlier post 18 you will know there were 38 starters in the Snetterton 24 hr race during the 80s and 90s.
In the mid 80s such was the popularity of the event because it was affordable that 76 teams sent in their entry fees in full in advance and John Nicol of the BRSCC selected the mix of cars he wanted in the race (38 starters )
Even in 1992 50 teams submitted entry forms and fees. The next year after the entry fee was quadroupled only 13 forms & fees were sent in by the closing date and the event was then cancelled never to be held again.
No one has said that money has the same purchasing power now as 30 years ago , of course it hasn't and of course fees cannot be the same now as then, no one has said that.

On the new 3 mile layout with a permitted 47 starters that enables cost to be spread amongst more people taking part.

Decisions for potential entrants depends upon the whole package. The rules, the catagory of cars eligible , the purchase price of a car with a reasonable chance of a decent result, the cost of converting it as required and the operating cost during the race including the entry fees. The residual value and how many drivers you can spread the cost between. Without all those facts you cannot calculate cost and decide whether it is affordable for your team.
Circuit owners charges etc to clubs renting tracks is now so high, if any event along thes lines is ever to be run again it probably will need to be all run by the circuit owner themselves with a 5 year plan and a lot of detailed thought beforhand.

[John Turner]

Well this has become pretty lively. Some great informative posts from Richard, in particular.

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

So, not to put too fine a point on it, unless this is run for late 70's up to 90s cars, there's little hope of it flying at any reasonable pricing level. And of course those years aren't considered historic.

Agreed; much as it would be a delight to see pre 70's cars racing for 24 hours, I don't see it as either viable or practical for all the reasons you mention. We should be looking, if at all, at the period you suggest ie pre Britcar 24 hours, which does have a spread of cars running in it going back 20or so years. And yes, unlike those stuck in a some time warp, the 'historic' car defintion must be rolling. Motor racing history does not end at 1965, or 1970; it is in fact, continuous. Anything pre 1990, is (stating the obvious) over 20 years old. This is why I also regard the 360MRC a race for basically historic cars even if some of the established pundits don't think so.

Originally Posted by ClaireSmith

If JT does it good luck to him, I wish him every success with it, but I think (and i can have an opinion) that it wont be so much JT as JP who wants to actually do it.

Oh, I so wanted to say this, but that is it in a nutshell. If JP wants it to happen, then it has a real chance.

[Al Weyman]

And yes, unlike those stuck in a some time warp, the 'historic' car defintion must be rolling. Motor racing history does not end at 1965, or 1970; it is in fact, continuous.

Well i have been banging on about this and the fixation with Pre-66 since I joined this forum, its great at last to see someone at least agree. As you know I run with CTCRC well its an interesting fact that of all the 'Historic' championships the club runs I recon the cheapest to compete in is the latest one i.e. the Pre 93's and the reason for that is simply the prices cars like the Escort Mexico/RS2000 now command!

[zefarelly]

I can actually . . . my FiA engine isn't highly strung and is reliable over time. likewise the gerbox, properly used lasts several year between rebuilds (2005-2009 and a routine rebuild with new bearings as a precaution)

I will however admit that to get anywhere near the squirty end of a 20 minute race requires something a little different, and you need to ring its neck too!

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Yeah and also they are probably the only historic car that will last the distance. Can't see an old CoCoTina or Chevy with tuned engine staying together for 24 hours can you?

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by John Turner

....... Anything pre 1990, is (stating the obvious) over 20 years old. This is why I also regard the 360MRC a race for basically historic cars even if some of the established pundits don't think so.

Too True.Sorry I think one thing is very clear from this thread as I said before...time moves on therefore so does history

Originally Posted by John Turner

Oh, I so wanted to say this, but that is it in a nutshell. If JP wants it to happen, then it has a real chance.

In the words of Roy Walker on Catchphrase "Say what ya see"

PS got your message last night, didnt leave work til 10 so thought it too late to ring...will speak later today hopefully

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

We live in a somewhat different age. Next you'll be reminding me of the 1970 BOAC 1000 class win at Brands.

For a start trying to run on unleaded fuel for a constant 24hrs (unleaded wasn't invented in 1965) even at 90% is likely to wear the head out on anything with a BL/BMC engine. Even those with hardened valve seats.

Second the works supported cars threw away their transissions etc. after an event, the works sometimes (as we know) threw the entire car away (less reg no).

We aren't talking here about disposable vehicles, we are talking about cars that people want to continue racing after an event. Engine and transmission rebuilds are one thing but carrying spare engines/gearboxes/axles etc. so that the car can be quickly rebuilt after a 24hr stint, is a bit more like a professional exercise.

I'm not against it per se but logistically this would be way beyond my means and I consider myself to be reasonably well funded for racing (when I have the time).

One of my MED race engines did 2 + years of FISC without adjusting tappets; that's at least 24 hours running. Both materials and fuel additives andoils have come on just a bit in 40 years.

I wasn't for a moment suggesting people should race unsuitable machinery for 24 hours - more trying to say that if one is a serious endurance racer then one specs and builds accordingly. Even with my (very) limited resources, facilities and knowledge I would be more than happy to choose a car, prep it and run it in a 24 hour race, and would expect it to be running at the end, although I'd be prepared to change a gearbox - or an engine if rules permitted - during the event.
I would choose my drivers very carefully too !

[Peter Mallett]

But you stopped between those races. Makes a massive difference. The heat sink in an engine doesn't disappear in a five mins pit stop.

You do a 24hrs race with a B or A series engine and I'm convinced, without four or five star petrol you'll melt a piston. It even happens in 6hrs races.