Audi LMP1 Discussion

[MyNameIsNigel]

I would love to see some more creative liveries on the Audi R18s this year. The Bathurst Audi R8 liveries are quite inspired and inspiring I must say:


If Audi's 2015 FIA-WEC season ends up being as difficult as last year's (with hopefully a few "highs" along the way) it won't harm to have beautiful cars racing on track.

[MihokS5]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

I would love to see some more creative liveries on the Audi R18s this year. The Bathurst Audi R8 liveries are quite inspired and inspiring I must say:


If Audi's 2015 FIA-WEC season ends up being as difficult as last year's (with hopefully a few "highs" along the way) it won't harm to have beautiful cars racing on track.

I agree and think they will change it up a bit. I like the liveries last year and lovedthe black wheels, just not a huge fan of white on the German cars. They gotta go back to the silver, black, and red

[Mr Pink]

Originally Posted by MihokS5

I agree and think they will change it up a bit. I like the liveries last year and lovedthe black wheels, just not a huge fan of white on the German cars. They gotta go back to the silver, black, and red

White is the traditional german racing color

[chernaudi]

White was originally the traditional German racing color (hence why it's featured heavily in Porsche color schemes over the years). Silver came in when Auto Union (present day Audi) and Mercedes-Benz decided not to paint their cars to make that they met the mid-1930s 750kg max weight limit for Grand Prix cars.

I don't think that Audi will change the color scheme up--it's derived from and an homage to their 1980's WRC cars--especially if the car's bodywork doesn't deviate much from the sprint an LM packages from last year, and I don't think that using a more pronounced fastback sweep to the tub with a legality bump (if Audi are going in that direction with the 2015 tubs) is going to do much as far as changing the color scheme.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Some information about the relevant race engineers to take care of the three Audi R18 in 2015, thanks to sportaudi.de:
- Leena Gade will continue to be in charge of the Fässler-Tréluyer-Lotterer trio on car #7 (she will presumably also act as lead race engineer)
- Justin Taylor (who still seems to be contracted to Audi Sport through Progressive Motorsport) is confirmed on car #8 to take care of the Di Grassi-Duval-Jarvis trio after having successfully taken this position for the last race of the 2014 season
- Matthias Huber (the newcomer in the race team) will be in charge of the Bonanomi-Albuquerque-Rast trio on car #9.

Matthias Huber (with Audi Sport since 2010) was apparently formerly part of the test team that worked on the development/testing of the 2014 Audi R18. An interesting interactive report about the development of the 2014 car, featuring Matthias Huber, is available here.

[gwyllion]

This information come straight from the latest press release: https://www.audi-motorsport.info/v2/...single/id/9816

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

This information come straight from the latest press release: https://www.audi-motorsport.info/v2/...single/id/9816

Is it ? Because I don't see any information in that particular press release regarding the relevant race engineers that were supposed to be in charge of the three cars.

I guess you are referring to this one

[chernaudi]

Per the Autosport Audi/Toyota testing article, Audi are supposed to be releasing info and maybe press photos of the 2015 R18 probably within the next couple of weeks, for sure more than likely by the end of this month.

Surely, the timing probably coincides with them testing at Sebring shortly there after, which is a track that due to parts of it being within easy sight distance from a public road and an airport with public access, so it makes sense for them to release info and photos just before that test.

Also, I'd wonder if anyone would offer any guesses as to changes compared to the 2014 car that might be made.

Two that I'd be most interested in seeing is if Audi adopt a "legality bump" roofline that would allow them to run a fastback roofline while still complying with the letter, let alone the "spirit" of the ACO's roof height regs.

Also, I'd think that possibly that Audi might still keep the basic sprint race packages aside from minor tweaks from last year, but I'd have to think that for the sprint and LM package, they might adopt a periscope exhaust system like what Toyota has used for a while and the 2015 Porsche 919 has seemingly adopted.

I don't know if the periscope exhaust will cost or add horsepower (they might have to twist the pipes a bit, though they'll at the same time be shorter), and they can be used to more effienctly work with tail end aero, due to the exhaust flow interacting with the tail and rear wing (those regs were intended to prevent teams from mounting any serious effort to running an exhaust blown diffuser and minimize any other efforts to use exhaust flow to impact aero, though I'd say that Toyota and Porsche doing would give some aero benefit).

Also, if Audi do alter the exhaust system, that could suggest, unlike what has been rumored, that Audi might also be using some type of exhaust gas recovery system. Such as thing might also give hints on if Audi could be running 4 or 6 MJ. If they just have the ERS-K with the flywheel, then they'll do 4MJ, but ERS-K with the flywheel and a modified exhaust system with a ERS-H provision, then they'll probably be going for 6MJ.

And even if they have no intention currently to run ERS-H right now, the periscope exhaust does have aero and possible engine power/efficiency benefits.

[MyNameIsNigel]

I would offer two guesses:

1. The conservative guess: Audi stepping up to 4MJ with an optimized ERS-K combined with fuel efficiency improvements on the engine side. Anything less than that would be disappointing.

2. The more audacious guess: Audi stepping up to 6MJ with optimized ERS-K, second ERS-H (inspired on Porsche's "wastegate" solution), beefed-up ES, plus fuel efficiency improvements on the engine side (call it the "leaving-no-stone-unturned guess").

In any event, there will definitely be changes in the exhaust layout considering the revisions that were carried out in the rules. The periscope solution would seem a logical solution, but Audi could try to be more innovative in this area as they have been the past two years.

[cokata]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

I would offer two guesses:

1. The conservative guess: Audi stepping up to 4MJ with an optimized ERS-K combined with fuel efficiency improvements on the engine side.

2. The more audacious guess: Audi stepping up to 6MJ with optimized ERS-K, second ERS-H (inspired on Porsche's "wastegate" solution), beefed-up ES, plus fuel efficiency improvements on the engine side (call it the "leaving-no-stone-unturned guess").

I would guess they will avoid the ERS-H approach. Their system last year was already capable of 4MJ (since it was an evolution of their '12 and '13 system that was able to get 3.5MJ), but avoided for the sake of Le Mans. Since the track is very engine dominant we saw the porsche was very slow, and the audi was almost as quick as the toyota. In a way they traded pace in WEC rounds for competitive Le Mans car that would still be able to fight even if the hybrid system malfunctions.

[chernaudi]

It has to be remembered that the hybrid systems on the Porsche and Toyota didn't fail so much as an electrical bit on the Toyota that wasn't hybrid system related fail and set the car's cockpit ablaze.

Also, Porsche's hybrid system didn't really malfunction, but both cars had engine problems, the #20 blew an engine, and the #14 spent most of the last hour or so in the garage with various engine and gearbox problems.

And having a more powerful hybrid system is virtually a must, because Audi have admitted that the cars should be significantly faster this year just based on being able to more effectively able to get the most out of the hybrid systems.

As far as Audi being more "innovative" with the exhaust system, they really can't be because of the box that the ACO has put teams in with it because of their IMO psychotic and paranoid fear of the F1 exhaust blow diffuser deal blowing a huge hole in their whole "green" and "efficiency" agenda.

Ironically, the Audi exhaust blown diffuser deal was basically the polar opposite of what the ACO feared--Audi used their EBD for drag reduction, instead of increasing downforce in cornering; the decrease in Audi's fuel mileage between '12 and '13 was simply the consequence of burning 10% more fuel for probably close to 10% more horsepower.

About the only thing that Audi can do much different compared to '14 is use a version of the periscope exhaust that they had on their LM cars, which as it was used at LM is now basically illegal because of that 50mm/2 inch gap between the trailing edge of the engine cover and top of the rear diffuser (odd how the ACO are all about improving both performance and efficiency whilst putting bans and restrictions on stuff that would further those goals).

Audi will probably run a solution similar to that that suits the ACO's revised regs, or maybe a Toyota/Porsche/Nissan inspired solution. TMG don't run any ERS system that uses exhaust or heat energy, so there has to be an aero benefit, and if Audi could run an exhaust blown diffuser off their 3.7 TDI, I can't see why they couldn't benefit from a periscope exhaust on the R18 now.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Just reading through the latest issue of AutoHebdo magazine, which contains interesting bits of information.

Dr. Ullrich is being reported confirming that Audi will not be making the step up to 6MJ, but to 4MJ. He also claims that only the 2014 monocoque has been carried over to the 2015 car. Dr. Ullrich is also reported confirming that Audi's apparent lack of performance last year was in great part due to their decision to run with the sprint package. That may suggest a change of strategy for 2015.

Chris Reinke, on the other hand is being reported that Audi have been testing 2015 parts since the end of last summer. The development work on the 2015 car actually started as early as after the 6h of Spa in May 2014. The test at Motorland Aragon was the first test with the 100% 2015 car and went perfectly well according to Reinke. They appear to be very pleased with the target that they have set and seemingly reached.

[chernaudi]

The only way that Audi jumping to 4MJ will be a big help is if Toyota stay at 6MJ (which is rumored), and Porsche still have some performance issues with the 919 (not known yet if the 2015 car has fixed all those issues). Also, using the 2014 chassis means no "fasback" rear tub design, so I assume that Audi think that they can make gains elsewhere? Of course, I'd assume that the basic engine/gearbox concept would also carry over, just updated for performance reasons.

But then again, Audi coming out and basically saying that the sprint race package for 2014 was too draggy and the added downforce/drag ate too much into their cars' top speed does seem to suggest that Audi are now willing to sacrifice at least some downforce to get more top speed, provided that it doesn't do too much damage to the older sprint spec's better attributes (helping with tire wear, as well as braking and cornering abilities).

Could Audi just run a high downforce version of the 2014 LM package and/or mix and match parts from the 2014 sprint and LM aero kits?

The fact that Audi did little work on the sprint spec R18s post LM seems to back up the fact that they were working on the 2015 aero package certainly after LM last year, though it would've been neat to see some more of that line of thinking filter in onto the 2014 cars. However, that does suggest that at least some of the 2014 sprint package was a developmental dead end as far as the team was concerned. Also, I'd think that secrecy also played a part, and I do think that Audi are hoping that being a bit ahead of Toyota and Porsche in development might give them an edge at the start of the season.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Isn't the rear roll-over structure (which impacts the design of the bodywork rearward of the cockpit) actually separate from the monocoque ?

[cokata]

Nissan is a wild card. But while it is rumored that toyota (might) stay with 6mj, it was also said that they will sacrifice performance in the WEC rounds where they will be quicker with 6mj, but instead homologate to 8mj which they can achieve @ Le Mans. Also a rumor popped up that they may have found 2 secs per lap @ Paul Ricard and that is pretty big improvement considering the advantage they already had.

Porsche will be very quick if they managed to improve the reliability of their hybrid system. As for Le Mans they will need to improve their engine quite abit to be able to compete.

[chernaudi]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

Isn't the rear roll-over structure (which impacts the design of the bodywork rearward of the cockpit) actually separate from the monocoque ?

Audi's tubs since the original R18s have been molded in one piece, which means that the roll-over structure is an integral part of the tub, which can't be changed unless they modify the design and build new tubs. So I can't see how Audi can "keep" the 2014 tub design and at the the same time modify that area of the tub.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Audi's tubs since the original R18s have been molded in one piece, which means that the roll-over structure is an integral part of the tub, which can't be changed unless they modify the design and build new tubs. So I can't see how Audi can "keep" the 2014 tub design and at the the same time modify that area of the tub.

Yes, you are most certainly correct about this. Actually it wouldn't make much sense for the rear rollover structure not to be an integral part of the tub.

[chernaudi]

Could we also be seeing a bit of a mix of new and old in the 2015 R18 as well, as in a sprint race package influenced maybe by the 2013 car?

Among the changes that I can see Audi making are closing off the slats in the nose and running fewer of them, as well as closing up the valance panel in front of the sidepod intake and merging it into the sidepod as on the older R18 variants. Also, they'd probably re-shape some of the tail parts (make the inboard rear fender sections more flushly fit over the rear wheels, and make lower the kick up on the engine cover TE a bit).

Audi might keep the double dive planes on the sprint race bodywork because dive planes, when used mostly as vortex generators, tend to be free downforce relatively speaking (the old Nissan GTP ZX-T's dive planes made only about 30lbs of drag for over 400lbs of downforce gain due to the vortexes shed off of them, and dive planes can also use said vortex generation to reduce drag while adding downforce). And they might keep one or two things from the HD R18 sprint package in some form to add downforce, but probably in a toned-down form.

I'm thinking, naturally, that Audi will have found ways of paring off drag, while maintaining downforce. Of course, though, the stuff that I've mentioned are my speculation based on what I know of aerodynamics and looking at older incarnations of the Audi R18 series.

[GingerPixel]

I'm excited to see what Audi roll out this year. They are never a team I root for, but their reaction to what the other teams roll out, and their performance last year will be very interesting.

[TF110]

Does anyone recall Audi's stream from LM last year? On Autosport forums, a user ther claims Audi hit 355kmh with Bonanomi behind the wheel. He posted this picture of Lotterer hitting 351kmh according to their live telemetry.



Think this shows Audi are fine in terms of power. Imo, theres no way they were lacking in that area. I think the issue was the car was too much drag and their gearing was off, especially at Spa.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Don't forget the ERS incentive. Audi were lacking overall performance in great part due to the effect of this ERS incentive and their decision to run in the lowest ERS class. In effect, without such ERS incentive, Audi would have been able to burn comparatively more fuel and generate more performance over a lap. As such, they are fine in terms of power, but had to fight with an overall energy deficit.

[TF110]

They knew of the ers incentive at the same time as every other team. And even if they had no clue it would be a theoritical drop in lap time, they had 4mj in reach but chose 2mj. Thats not an excuse for their pace. Imo it was an iffy decision. My point is the diesel engine has huge advantages. Efficiency and torque being the biggest. They should be fine this season if they get it right. The lm spec car was fine, so they have that to go on.

[cokata]

Originally Posted by TF110

Does anyone recall Audi's stream from LM last year? On Autosport forums, a user ther claims Audi hit 355kmh with Bonanomi behind the wheel. He posted this picture of Lotterer hitting 351kmh according to their live telemetry.



Think this shows Audi are fine in terms of power. Imo, theres no way they were lacking in that area. I think the issue was the car was too much drag and their gearing was off, especially at Spa.

As you can see he is in the "overtaking" lane just before the first chicane. I can bet you he used the ERS boost to help pass before the corner. Off boost they were hitting 340-342 kph, the toyota was 343-345kph, and the porsche 333-335kph.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by TF110

They knew of the ers incentive at the same time as every other team. And even if they had no clue it would be a theoritical drop in lap time, they had 4mj in reach but chose 2mj. Thats not an excuse for their pace. Imo it was an iffy decision. My point is the diesel engine has huge advantages. Efficiency and torque being the biggest. They should be fine this season if they get it right. The lm spec car was fine, so they have that to go on.

No excuse. Just a fact induced by the regulations. They choose to run in the 2MJ class and that was - with hindsight - not the most optimal choice to say the least. Fact is that, as a result of this choice, they were handicapped by the ERS incentive that - on paper - implied a performance deficit of 1.6 sec/lap @LM compared to the 6MJ petrol LMP1s.

Considering the pace that they showed at LM, they did any incredibly good job to compensate that artificially-created deficit.

Now, this is history. Audi have no "excuses" anymore. They know what the EoT is. They have (and will) opt for different approach, with a move to the 4MJ ERS class being all but confirmed.

With improved engine efficiency, they should hopefully be back in the game and more or less on equal terms with the competition.

[TF110]

What I think is they made that their reason for being off pace because they were disadvantaged by going 2mj. But why weren't they behind so much at LM? Imo it was more of the car's aero direction in the sprint package. Yeah I know 2mj is nowhere near 6mj. I think Audi plays a good game and aren't far off pace. They should've ran the LM package!