Rules are Rules

[Mark Webber]

well of course except if you are in V8's

read through the cams books and there are very clear sizes and colours &numbers and (BOXS) have to be used (so Flaggies and race control can visual see what is what .But
its a joke when our main class don't even follow the rules the rest of us racers have to .
This is no more evident than the lastest 888 cars .... look at any track pic of the car and u tell me if a flaggie could see the numbers

so what was I thinking V8's can do what ever they want and cams will do nothing


http://www.ignitionmagazine.com/inde...d=4057#Gallery


http://www.ignitionmagazine.com/inde...d=4057#Gallery

[davester]

For a start V8 Supercars run to their own Technical specifications, which in some cases allow for non-conformances of non-performance or non-safety issues.

Pushing the rule book to one side for a moment, the V8 Supercar does present a unique situation in that the cars are generally recognisable by their distinctive and well known liveries...the only thing to really focus on is getting the right car which is not too difficult.

If an official was unable to determine if T Kelly or M Skaife was involved in an action requiring a report to the Stewards, I'd be a little surprised (ok not a great example as these two are often at different ends of the field).

The sheer publicity and star billing these cars attract mean that almost anyone involved in the sport in an official capacity is likely to get it right. In fact the liveries would in many cases make identification a hell of a lot easier than say an incident in a pack of Formula Vees.

Another factor to consider is that many of the current number designs (due to their larger sizing) are easier to spot...it's only a few teams that provide difficulty.

[racer69]

I've always preferred the traditional 'black in a white box' number designs.

NASCAR numbers look quite hideous (especially the stuff seen on the WPS & GRM cars this year.......)

[Phase3]

I like the new numbers & reckon they look great, black numbers in a white box is very archaic & a step backwards IMO, but I do agree the 888 numbers a dreadfull......

[PVDA]

You can get approval for non standard numbers.

The main reason why the cars have the windscreen numbers is for officials to identify the vehicle easily.

Besides, unless there's video evidence to back it trackside official reports are usually ignored by the V8 officialdom.

[barney551]

Originally Posted by racer69

I've always preferred the traditional 'black in a white box' number designs.

NASCAR numbers look quite hideous (especially the stuff seen on the WPS & GRM cars this year.......)

Quite often the traditional way isnt always the best way. You also ned to remember that the V8's are now more than motor racing and infact should be considered as entertainment and as can be seen here with all the discussions on liveries appearnance is a big thing.

While I can problems with some numbers i.e. the T8 cars your argument about NASCAR style numbers and specifically the GRM cars is ridiculous.

These numbers are clear and precise and of a style and size that would not be confusing to anyone.

Lets stop living in the past ... tradition is wonderful but not always right!!!!

[Mark Webber]

maybe so but we you can not see the numbers like the 888 cars its a problem , the numbers on the screen are good only if you can see the screen

[resisturban]

What about the huge names on the read windows?

Surely you can read them.

[Spunky]

The V8 manual overrides the Cams manual, so see what it says in there and that is what they can do.

[RotorFan]

Originally Posted by barney551

Quite often the traditional way isnt always the best way.

...

These numbers are clear and precise and of a style and size that would not be confusing to anyone.

Lets stop living in the past ... tradition is wonderful but not always right!!!!

and

Originally Posted by Phase3

I like the new numbers & reckon they look great, black numbers in a white box is very archaic & a step backwards IMO, but I do agree the 888 numbers a dreadfull......

The attitude of people these days is that old is automatically worse. Quite often, the traditional way *is* the best way but everything needs to be new these days so its thrown out.


I prefer the white boxes with numbers in them. It provides consistency, is very clear and looks more professional in my opinion.

[A9X05]

Originally Posted by Phase3

I like the new numbers & reckon they look great, black numbers in a white box is very archaic & a step backwards IMO, but I do agree the 888 numbers a dreadfull......

The "archaic" Black/White box is still the best option!! 888 is the best example of what isnt working! The new 888 and 88 numbers need a white box around it.
Some of the designs are too much like NASCAR! This is Australia, lets keep it that way, and lets us be leaders, not followers!

[barney551]

Originally Posted by RotorFan

and





The attitude of people these days is that old is automatically worse. Quite often, the traditional way *is* the best way but everything needs to be new these days so its thrown out.


I prefer the white boxes with numbers in them. It provides consistency, is very clear and looks more professional in my opinion.

I did not say there was anything wrong with old ... or ... traditional things .. so dont make those assumptions please .

I DID, however, say that there is nothing wrong with change or progress where it does not lower the standards. I also pointed that the T8 numbers weren't satisfactory.

Take notice of what is written not what you want to read!!!!

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by barney551

Quite often the traditional way isnt always the best way.

In this case it is.

Originally Posted by barney551

You also ned to remember that the V8's are now more than motor racing and infact should be considered as entertainment

Each to their own, but if looks like motor racing, smells like motor racing I am going to call it motor racing. V8s fall under the umbrella of motorsport and nothing angers me more than when some (mostly) Vesa try to separate themselves for motorsport as a whole at their whim when it best suits them.

Originally Posted by barney551

While I can problems with some numbers i.e. the T8 cars your argument about NASCAR style numbers and specifically the GRM cars is ridiculous.

These numbers are clear and precise and of a style and size that would not be confusing to anyone.

But look absolutley dreadful

[Schrodes]

I was thinking about this same topic this time last year so I looked up the regulations on the V8 Supercar website (which appears to be down at the moment so I can't quote the relevant section). The teams have to submit drawings of their cars and the design of the numbers to TEGA and they either approve or reject it.

[Schrodes]

D 22.2 VCS Series Identification

22.2.1 Unless otherwise specified in Supplementary/Further Regulations, all cars competing in any VCS meeting must carry the series' identification decals mounted as indicated in schedule D7.

22.2.2 A space 500mm wide and 120mm high located immediatley above the race number on each side of the Car is required for the event sponsor.

22.2.3 A space 200mm high and 200mm wide positioned forward of the competition number on the door or front guard on each side of the Car is required for the series sponsor.

D.22.5 Competition Numbers

22.5.1 At all times while participating in any V8 Supercars approved activity:

22.5.1.1 Cars must have competition numbers affixed; and

22.5.1.2 No two (2) or more cars may have the same competition number displayed.

22.5.2 All competition numbers must conform to the minimum requirements set out in Schedule D7 of these Rules.

22.5.3 Prior to 10th February 2006 all Teams must submit for approval to V8 Supercars a complete Car colour graphic illustration or photograph representing the proposed number font and colour scheme that the Team intend to use in 2006.

22.5.4 V8 Supercars will reply in writing to each Team within 7 days of receiving the proposed number font / colour scheme either granting approval or suggesting modifications to meet the minimum requirements under these Rules.

D22.7 Variation
Notwithstanding the requirements of this Division, V8 Supercars has discretion to approve any sign not in conformity of these Rules, provided there are compelling commercial considerations and that the written request and artwork are submitted to V8 Supercars and after such approval , any variations must be noted in the Car's CAMS Log Book.

Schedule D7 has a diagram showing what is considered the traditional competition number, the black number with a white background and measurements showing how far the numbers should be from the border, how far apart the numbers should be from each other and how high and wide the numbers should be.

[peckstar]

its interesting that mr webber quotes the cams rules, which would be relevant if this was a series under cams, but as its under the FIA then CAMS have less relevance tahn FIA rules.

Its interesting also that officials in F1 dont seem to have a problem with these numbers.

The number rules as quoted are froma bygone era, they have been supersceeded

by five things that never used to occured in days of old when the number sysyem was invented.

No 1. fluroescent has been invented. As a result car4s have a nice fluro number on the windscreen, so that people can see the number as the car comes towards them, not for the half a second that it takes a car to whiz past

No. 2 Cars now have their names on them so that drivers can see the name of the driver

No 3 Cars now have a number on the back so officials can see the car number as it goes past (ok its small)

No 4 cars now have sponsorship and modern graphics and designs. mean it is obvious what car is going past you in the past cars would often be the sanme colour and had no sponsorship, so all you could see was a red falcon (fill in your colour or car)

No 5. Drivers are much more permanent in their car and the same cars turn up to each round, there is more tv than in the past, more news, more print media, the internet etc. If we have an interest in cars we no the teams the drivers the sponsors etc

No 6. the cars still have numbers on their sides, that are often larger than in the past. surely our officials are not blind and stupid and have the ability to discern numbers.

just because it happened in the past, does not mean it has relevance to now. there was no motor racing 110 years ago, would some of you old timers like to go that far back or is it just a case of pickinga point in time

apprantly the world is round

[barney551]

Well said peckstar....

Some on here need to be dragged kicking into the real world and stop worrying about what was.

For those that may think I am a youngster here ... I am 51 and been following motorsport for most of my life and come into contact with many people involved in thye sport at all levels and involvement.

Some on here are happy living i the past and don't like change no matter what the benefits may be.

[MPA]

All been said before I got here. The V8 guys run to their own rules so it's not a CAMS issue.

But it can get hard when car #2 has Mobil1 on the doors. But we all know who they are anyway so its not really going to help a driver get away with anything naughty out there.

However....when Timmy says to wave our blue flags at car number 23, we might have trouble finding it.......

[TSR]

Seems to me that the v8 rules an v8 itself are a rule to them selves. And yes the current style numbers are not the greatest.

But hey who are we just the paying fans and Aussie Bernie and his cashorts could not give a flying **** about as the fans.

That's racing CAMS style 2007

[fomoco]

Originally Posted by MPA

All been said before I got here. The V8 guys run to their own rules so it's not a CAMS issue.

But it can get hard when car #2 has Mobil1 on the doors. But we all know who they are anyway so its not really going to help a driver get away with anything naughty out there.

However....when Timmy says to wave our blue flags at car number 23, we might have trouble finding it.......

Thats if Timmy will still let us, he trialled telementry at Indy, no blue flags required.

[PVDA]

Originally Posted by fomoco

Thats if Timmy will still let us, he trialled telementry at Indy, no blue flags required.

Interesting concept that.

I only hope the trackside marshals have a written bulletin to fall back on as to why they did not give the mandated FIA/CAMS Blue Flag signal when a collision occurs during a lapping move and seriously injured or worse and the finger pointing starts.

Peckstar makes some interesting comments but even though we may be able to pick a GRM car from an HRT car it doesn't help if you call in the a GRM car hit an HRT car without being able to indentify which team cars they were!!

Also indentifying race cars on TV is easy or even from on the hill or grandstand but try doing it trackside with all the other stuff going on around you. It aint as easy as you think.

[Group'C']

Originally Posted by A9X05

Some of the designs are too much like NASCAR! This is Australia, lets keep it that way, and lets us be leaders, not followers!

So lets just FOLLOW what they have been doinin for the last 30yrs !!!!

Lets make them big and bold so we can ALL see the Bl--dy things

The T8 cars will be hard to distinguish between each other at the track and on TV, All they need is a white outline around them.