Crossing a live track.

[Dave Brand]

This comment was made in the thread on marshalling standards in China, but I believe it merits its own thread:

Originally Posted by scorch

As has been pointed out you are told at training days, never to cross the circuit. however i have crossed the circuit many times with a fire extinguisher, and come to think of it in a fire tender, under racing conditions. I have told many trainees not to cross the circuit but i think as a more experenced marshall i consider it acceptable if required.

As far as I'm concerned, crossing a live track with a bottle is a definite no-no!

I don't care how experienced you are......all the experience in the world doesn't give you immunity from slipping on a patch of oil, tripping over a piece of debris, dropping the bottle etc. What would be the consequences of a car hitting a marshal or a bottle?

I'm not happy with marshals crosssing a live track under any circumstances, but I accept that with the low manning levels we have at some meetings it may be necessary; I do, however, believe that it should only be done with the approval of, & a signal from, the observer. Even if there are not enough marshals to cover both sides of the circuit, bottles can, at most of the posts I've worked on, be left ready for incidents on the unmanned sides.

The first rule of marshalling is personal safety......maybe there's a reason why we're told at training days never to cross a live track carrying a bottle?

[diz]

Back in my marshalling days, I turned up at Mallory on spec one Sunday and ended up observing on Stebbe Straight. My fire marshal did cross a live track to a single seater that had pulled off on the left. This part of his mission he accomplished very well.
The return journey didn't go quite so smoothly, as he did trip and fall over, ending up on all fours in the middle of the track as the lead battle exited Gerards.
This was one of those heart in the mouth moments - all in slow motion - and I could never thank the flaggie on Gerards Out enough. He waved that yellow flag more vigourously than Ainsley Harriet has ever whipped a meringue and imparted the impending danger to the leaders as they approached him, so much so that they made hand signals to our hapless fire marshal to stay where he was "I'm going that side" etc. He then got back on his feet and returned to the post. We found him a chair to sit on and he tried and failed to light a cigarette, he was shaking so much.

Well that's my tale recounted. I'm with you on this one Dave.

[Kicking-back]

The death of Tom Pryce is all the indication that's required.

[The Fat Clerk]

I think it's a case of time & place, if you know the post you're on well & have colleagues you know you can trust..........

Certainly @ the Hairpin @ Mallory for example, as an Observer I encourage my team to do it & I've cetainly done it a few times over the years as those of you who know me will confirm. I once hurdled 3 layer armco @ Thruxton, mind you I was a lot younger (& slimmer then)

[scorch]

OK as i am being held up as a bad marshall i though i better have my say...

1st, i would not trust an observer to tell me when to cross the track or not as far as i could throw him/her. it's MY decision when and where i do stuff not his... as they always preach My safety first and i refuse to put in the hands of somone 50m away. i have had observers trying to indicate to me to go fetch stuff of the circuit and i did not feel safe and refused point blank, infact on that case i do believe i had a stand up row with him over it.

2nd, there has to be a reason to do it. so you are telling me if a driver was screaming trapped in a burning car, you would stand there going no no i must not cross the circuit.

3rd i said visibility is the key, if there is suficient time to cross then i don't see a problem, for example crossing over the bottom of hangor straight at silverstone, even with F1 you have plenty of visibility and time to cross and do what needs to be done.

4th, who ever said anything about coming back. whenever i have crossed the circuit it's a once only event, cross over and stay there.

5th i have seen people cross over the circuit for piddling little peices of debris, WHY? so what if a car hits it.

6th, i'm sure people can come out with examples of people that have been caught out crossing the circuit, i bet i can name more cases where people have been hit or had close calls when working on 'their own' side of the circuit.

Thats all i can think of now... the red mist is stopping me from posting more...

[deadsquirrel]

Scorch - I'm with you - you posted almost exactly what I would have!

[Micky.H]

Scorch - I'm also with you.

Basically do your own risk assessment then decide whether to go or not, with an initial control measure being of wherever possible having a set of bottles on the other side.

[Rich D]

As a basic rule "don't cross" is a good, failsafe option - especially for the new marshal.

There may be circumstances where it is safe and desirable to cross - but it must be planned and executed carefully. (1st lap of an F1200 race, you've got 1min 40 sec until they come back again)

If the Observer/Captain say no, then no it is. They might just know something you don't! (especially if a land line is in use). Don't forget (at least over here) they are the legally liable person in charge of the station. If you get hurt, they could get sued. If they say yes, then it is still up to you - no one can 'order' you.

Fire bottles should be placed both sides, no one should have to cross with one.

At least where I work, Fire Rescue can get there as quick if not quicker than we can cross the track safely. Call an emergency and get the fire truck moving!

[mark_l]

I had an incident at Donington Park on the Craner Curves.

Car engine expired in a big way, it appeared to be heading on the grass to pull up beside me when it turned sharp right as a result of everything seizing and parked itself broadside on the track with the burning front end of the car pointing towards the infield.

I could of left the bottle where it was next to me, run across the track, past the burning car to the infield barrier and found the bottle behind the wall and carried the bottle back to the car and fight the fire.

I decided to take the bottle across the track whilst a race was in progress covered by a very vigoursly waved yellow and proceeded to put out the fire whilst stood on the grass on the infield side of the track. This saved the car from more serious damage and resulted in the fire being put out 30 seconds earlier.

The next post down at the entry to the Old Hairpin could see the flames leaping from the bonnet and was on the phone to call for a Red Flag and sent marshals up to assist. By the time the marshals had arrived the fire was out and the driver in a place of safety.

There are times when the 'Never cross the track with a bottle' rule can lead to a more serious fire than was neccessary

[Bodysnatcher]

Originally Posted by Rich D

If the Observer/Captain say no, then no it is. They might just know something you don't! (especially if a land line is in use). Don't forget (at least over here) they are the legally liable person in charge of the station.

I believe that is the situation in the UK as well - vague memory about the Goodwood FoS accident. Others would know better.

If we all decide to ignore Observers' advice then anarchy prevails. My general rule is don't cross the track. This assumes that there will be somebody & bottles near enough on the other side. Maybe not as quick as you could be, but quick enough.
I've had marshals at morning briefings that then start building up the hypotheticals.....
1 - but what if the car is on fire, can I cross the track ?
answer - no, not really, but it depends on other things
2 - what if the car is on its roof?
answer - no, not really, but it depends on other things
3 - on it's roof and on fire?
answer - no, not really but it depends on other things
4 - and 5 other cars have been involved?
aaargh
5 - and then a passing Airbus fell on them from a great height?
aaaarrrrggghh

Rule 1 still applies (Motorsport is Dangerous (c) MagnetOn)

As observer I make the decisions (good and bad)
If the situation was dire I would at least expect a look in my or the IO's direction for a decision. You do not go off on your own initiative. Marshalling is about teamwork, not go it alone heros.
Any marshal that crossed a live track after I have specifically said no would have to come up with some serious answers for me and the chief marshal. And probably would'nt be welcome as part of my team again.
But you can always say no if I ask you to cross the track (esp for scenario 5).

[JimW]

Originally Posted by The Fat Clerk

I think it's a case of time & place, if you know the post you're on well & have colleagues you know you can trust..........

Certainly @ the Hairpin @ Mallory for example, as an Observer I encourage my team to do it & I've cetainly done it a few times over the years as those of you who know me will confirm. I once hurdled 3 layer armco @ Thruxton, mind you I was a lot younger (& slimmer then)

I agree with you. Don't cross the track is a good rule and rarely needs to be broken. The times when it can safely be treated as a guideline are few, but sometimes 'a marshal's gotta do what a marshal's gotta do'. (The hairpin at Mallory is a very special case. Good visibility and a five-yard stroll with no, repeat no, barrier to leap over.)

Turning to the comments made by scorch, clearly some of what he says has merit. If you don't feel that you can trust what others are saying to you then you must look after yourself. Till then friends; take a deeeep breath and . . . relax.

(See the signature for my general approach to these things. And I've survived this long with that approach. )

Regards

Jim

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by scorch

OK as i am being held up as a bad marshall i though i better have my say...

Let's get a few things straight here. Firstly, it was not my intention to hold you up as a bad marshal; you made a comment which I disagreed with, namely that you believe it is safe to cross a live track with a bottle. I am as entitled to my opinion as you are to yours. Maybe I shouldn't have quoted you directly, but it would still have been obvious which post I was referring to.

1st, i would not trust an observer to tell me when to cross the track or not as far as i could throw him/her. it's MY decision when and where i do stuff not his... as they always preach My safety first and i refuse to put in the hands of somone 50m away. i have had observers trying to indicate to me to go fetch stuff of the circuit and i did not feel safe and refused point blank, infact on that case i do believe i had a stand up row with him over it.

Read what I said.....I didn't say 'under instruction from the observer', I said: 'I do, however, believe that it should only be done with the approval of, & a signal from, the observer.' I see it as my decision whether or not to take a certain course of action, but the observer, as a much more experienced marshal, usually with a better view of the track, may consider that it is too risky. I may have been lucky, but I can't think of an observer I've worked with whose judgement I wouldn't trust. Don't forget that marshalling is a team activity & that the observer is the leader of the team; if you're not happy with the observer, IO or anyone else you're working with, talk to the chief marshal.

Thats all i can think of now... the red mist is stopping me from posting more...

I think maybe I didn't make my point too clearly. Crossing a live track is not desirable; in an ideal world it wouldn't be necessary, but in the real world as I said in my original post, it has to be done. I will cross a live track when it is necessary, if I consider it safe to do so; I'm happy to have my decision overridden by an observer or IO, just as I'm happy for anyone working with me to refuse to do anything (s)he considers unsafe, even if I'd be happy to do it. If the situation is as bad as some of the scenarios you have postulated then I would in any case expect the race to have been red flagged, so the track is no longer live......

The point in your original post which I disagree with is crossing a live track with a bottle. In all the training sessions I've done it has been stressed that it is something you never do; no 'ifs', 'buts' & 'maybes' - pedantic, possibly, but better than trying to define who is 'experienced' enough to take a bigger risk than a somebody 'inexperienced'. I'm happy to accept the advice of people with many more years' experience of marshalling than I'll ever have.

Please feel free to disagree with anything I say or do - I won't take offence.....

[CombeMarshal]

I agree Scorch, But if the observer says no, then no it is, But if he says go and you don't feel safe DON'T!

At Combe there is no infield post from Bobbies out all the way to Quarry, some times you have to cross the track, but why some people then try to come back I'll never understand!

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by CombeMarshal

At Combe there is no infield post from Bobbies out all the way to Quarry, some times you have to cross the track, but why some people then try to come back I'll never understand!

It's not a situation I've ever found myself in, but I think I can understand why some people may want to cross back to the safety of the Armco - it must feel very exposed with nothing more than a few acres of grass for protection!

[stevebrown]

Originally Posted by Rich D

There may be circumstances where it is safe and desirable to cross - but it must be planned and executed carefully. (1st lap of an F1200 race, you've got 1min 40 sec until they come back again)

I've had to cross the track after a first lap incident where a Porsche rolled on the infield at the Bombhole where there are no marshals. The driver undone his belts and knocked himself out. It was probably the safest time to cross but you must watch out for stragglers. (someone coming off at a previous corner or someone with a ten sec penalty).

There was also an occasion where some speccies wanted me to go out to retrieve a wheel on the edge of the track. It was the first BTCC night race at Snet and I was on Esses out about 50 yards from the track. Yeah right! I nearly told them to fetch it themselves if they were that worried.

Steve B

[JimW]

Originally Posted by CombeMarshal

I agree Scorch, But if the observer says no, then no it is, But if he says go and you don't feel safe DON'T! . . .

Spot on.

Regards

Jim

[CombeMarshal]

Originally Posted by stevebrown

I've had to cross the track after a first lap incident where a Porsche rolled on the infield at the Bombhole where there are no marshals. The driver undone his belts and knocked himself out. It was probably the safest time to cross but you must watch out for stragglers. (someone coming off at a previous corner or someone with a ten sec penalty).

There was also an occasion where some speccies wanted me to go out to retrieve a wheel on the edge of the track. It was the first BTCC night race at Snet and I was on Esses out about 50 yards from the track. Yeah right! I nearly told them to fetch it themselves if they were that worried.

Steve B

With BTCC your probably safer in the middle of the track anyway!!!!

[Robin_D]

At Silverstone we have I.O's so we usually go by them or race control. There have been occasions where bits amounting to half a caterham have been left in the middle of the circuit. I have ran out after we are sure all cars have passed and picked up big bits and kicked smaller away.

I've seen the Tom Pryce clip. It is sickening. I've never been so close to being physically sick. If you still want to cross the track then watch that.

I would only cross a track if I knew the race had been stopped or if I was certain people and myself thought it was safe.

It is a general no no but then again do you know what is going to happen? The answer is no, so we might have to cross in extreme circumstances.

[Cynic]

It's a tricky call. In an ideal world we should have enough people / bottles around to not have to cross a live circuit with a bottle in hand, but there are going to be those occasions where it has to be done. My approach has always been for a signal from the I/o or observer first as in hopefully they have a better picture of what's going on. Having said that, ultimately I think it's an experience call. There are certain circuit posts and race series where there is no way I would venture out onto the track under anything less than a red flag unless it was a very dire (for the driver) situation.

[AndyMil]

I agree with Dave, crossing a live track is not deisirable, but crossing it with a bottle is a definate "not unless someones life depends on it", not a car(mostly replacable) but a life, and if you have set yourself up right in the morning you should have at least one bottle 'over the wall', if you are short ask circuit staff for another.

I admit to having a smoky cosworth pull off opposite me and out of habit picked the bottle up before remembering that I had a pair over there

[Stoowert]

i agree with the consensous. as a general rule don't. but a few years back at the fff i was observing on post 2 (paddock in) when at the end of a race, a car crossed the line with a small fire at the rear. my io looked at me, with bottle in hand as if to say "can i go?" i said he could go , and he went. no other cars were on the straight and he put the fire out so quickly, the driver could carry on his festival. i got quite a lot of stick for allowing him to go, but if you know hollywood, you'd know he wasn't being a hero, he was just doing what he thought was his job.

if crossing the track is what you want, when i first started at le mans, part of our rotation was over the other side. it took 6 seconds to run accross the rack and 8 seconds before a car exiting the kink would be at our post. plenty of time!

[CombeMarshal]

Originally Posted by AndyMil

I agree with Dave, crossing a live track is not deisirable, but crossing it with a bottle is a definate "not unless someones life depends on it", not a car(mostly replacable) but a life, and if you have set yourself up right in the morning you should have at least one bottle 'over the wall', if you are short ask circuit staff for another.

I admit to having a smoky cosworth pull off opposite me and out of habit picked the bottle up before remembering that I had a pair over there

You have to remember that some circuits (i.e. Combe) don't have many posts infield, there must be the best part of a mile between Bobbies out and Quarry, and theres no armco, just a field!

[MagnetON]

After the first rule of marshaling ("Don't get dead") and after the second ("Don't let anyone on the team get dead") and after a few others there's

It all depends!

I've crossed tracks, I've not crossed tracks, I've crossed tracks and lifted large amounts of debris (Remember the Caterhams at Anglesy Mark?) It's all a matter of awareness and risk assessment. If the lap time is 2 minutes and it's the first couple of laps then except for stragglers there's a good enough gap.

Be safe, don't do anything you're not happy with, and respect your ability and limitations.

[jim69]

I feel that this thread has other answers. If drivers obeyed yellow flags correctly, you could walk accross the track, with or without a bottle. Correct me if I am wrong but I understood a waved yellow flag ment SLOW DOWN AND BE PREPARED TO STOP. As I said if this was stuck to there would be no problem, however in reality drivers, maybe, slow 10%.
More should be done to enforce the slow down by the powers that be, and also maybe observers should report drivers who do not appear to be travelling slow enough to stop during a waved yellow incident................................

[MagnetON]

Originally Posted by jim69

I feel that this thread has other answers. If drivers obeyed yellow flags correctly, you could walk accross the track, with or without a bottle.

Which brings us back to driver standards and enforcement which could almost warrant it's own forum.