Acura/HPD's future plans

[Félix]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Very simple:
If Zytek sells the chassis to customers under that price, they are fine.

When was the last time Zytek produced or sold an LMP2 car? Certainly not in 2011 or even 2010, so what makes it different from the old RML/RLR or from the ARX-01? It must be a matter of paperwork and matching the old stuff with the right labels to convince the ACO. If Wirth does the right moves to convince the ACO that a new ARX-01d could be made and sold for 340,000 euros, it should work.

Only Oreca (probably based on old existing LC70/FLM tubs) and Lola have introduced new builds this year... and to be honest, if the ACO really wanted to come up with a cheap, attractive and well-matched class, they would allow older cars on an equal footing and even create incentives for old cars or new builds around older cars. I'm sure quite a bit can be done under the price cap with the many used LMPs available for sale out there... and yet all the ACO seems to be concerned about is favouring Oreca and screwing the others.

[littleman]

I don't believe Strakka and RML going back to the old original 3.4 litre V8 and running in LMP1 is a realistic option.

It sounds like it should be but apparently it would require completely different suspension, brakes and bodywork.The costs involved would be a serious six figure amount!

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by littleman

I don't believe Strakka and RML going back to the old original 3.4 litre V8 and running in LMP1 is a realistic option.

It sounds like it should be but apparently it would require completely different suspension, brakes and bodywork.The costs involved would be a serious six figure amount!

Strakka were talking about potentially moving back into P1 for 2012 actually, it was noted in an article in Autosport before the Ricard test days.

[Thumper]

Originally Posted by JAG

Level 5 ran a cost-capped open Lola and grandfathered coupe but both were uncompetitive.

Yes, how galling must that have been? Splash out hundreds of thousands on new chassis, and then see them out-performed by the car you gave up on the year before.

Originally Posted by gwyllion

I find it strange that dive planes can be added and removed, but it is not allowed to use different sized gurney flaps. Of course the rear wing position can be used to balance out the aero.

In case there's any confusion, one or other of the two homologated aero packages must be fitted at all times - one set at Le Mans, the other at all LMS races. It is not possible, for instance, to remove the dive planes completely - even accepting that this might seriously disrupt the overall efficiency of what is a very carefully designed package - or remove just one of the two planes on the higher-downforce configuration.

It would be very hard to argue that the RLR MG Lola could be supplied within cost-capped requirements simply because it is so old (no offence) and Lola hasn't produced a tub like that in years, having superceded the concept by newer or updated Lola designs several times since 2005.

And Félix, only Lola has fulfilled the cost-capped requirements to the full letter of the regulations, with the new finned B11/40. I'm told (can anyone confirm?) that the Oreca 03 is actually a reworking of the 2009 LMP1 chassis, so hardly a new design, and without the fin, certainly not fulfilling the requirements within the letter or the spirit of the regulations. Just how close is the relationship between Oreca and the ACO?

It's all very mucky, and reflects very poorly on the ACO.

[JAG]

If HPD built a cost-capped chassis using the current tub they wouldn't need a fin, it's the same rule that allows their P1 to run without one.

TBH I don't think grandfathered differences are a major factor as seen by HPD's engine being far from competitive in a cost-capped car.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Thumper

And Félix, only Lola has fulfilled the cost-capped requirements to the full letter of the regulations, with the new finned B11/40. I'm told (can anyone confirm?) that the Oreca 03 is actually a reworking of the 2009 LMP1 chassis, so hardly a new design, and without the fin, certainly not fulfilling the requirements within the letter or the spirit of the regulations. Just how close is the relationship between Oreca and the ACO?

It is a misconception that only cars with a fin comply with the cost-capped LMP2 rules.

A vertical rigid fin:

• must be added to the cars built as from 1st July 2010 (new chassis),
• is recommended for the other cars,
• will be mandatory for all cars as from 01/01/2013

Norma and Zytek have filled in the necessary paper work about the cost of spare parts to demonstrate that the car is sold cheap enough. However, because the chassis have been built last year, they don't need the fin before 2013.

The Oreca 03 in theory should run with a fin because the chassis are built this year. However, Oreca claim that the car was designed based on an earlier version of the rules which did not mandate the fin, and they have convinced the ACO that the addition of the fin would increase the price above the cost cap. It is clear that their good relationship with the ACO has helped their case.

[Audi Racer]

The fact of the matter is this isnt even a case of not making the adjustment because the ACO thinks then the Strakka and RML will blow away the field. this comes down to its not even fair. 3 seconds off the pace.For an HPD machine???. Bet you honda wishes they took their name off these entries lol.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by Audi Racer

Bet you honda wishes they took their name off these entries lol.

That's what is so silly about it. HPD (and perhaps Honda as a whole) seemed to be pretty optimistic about European sports car racing. The rumors of them sending Highcroft to Europe to race a few races in the LMS in order to show off the car show this. I don't think HPD can be optimistic about selling LMP2 engines to Europe right now and that could kill off HPD's chances of investing in building a new chassis for LMP1 and/or LMP2.

Completely baseless speculation that I will throw out there:

1. Perhaps Jonny Kane tested the Highcroft LMP1 car at Sebring a couple weeks ago because Strakka will abandon their LMP2 efforts and race the HPD LMP1 in the LMS later this year? Seems unlikely given that they still have a decent shot at the championship especially if they get a break, but who knows. I know the rumor is that Strakka would like to move into LMP1 eventually, but I don't know if that would be with an ARX-01e or with a new Wirth car.

2. The rumor is that at least one team (Pecom) is trying to woo Ferrari/Michelotto into supplying engines for LMP2. Perhaps Ferrari or others do not want to put their name on stock derived engines in a class where a "lowly" Honda/HPD will dominate. Thus, perhaps the ACO tried to eliminate HPD's advantage and they went way too far in doing so.

[Audi Racer]

Originally Posted by AGD

2. The rumor is that at least one team (Pecom) is trying to woo Ferrari/Michelotto into supplying engines for LMP2. Perhaps Ferrari or others do not want to put their name on stock derived engines in a class where a "lowly" Honda/HPD will dominate. Thus, perhaps the ACO tried to eliminate HPD's advantage and they went way too far in doing so.

I understand the position that the ACO is in. under equal terms(same engine power, same weight) the HPD would smoke the rest of the competition pretty badly.(how much power do they really want to give back to the Honda engines). That chassis and aero work on that car is a clear cut above the rest of the competition. The issue is that the HPD. P2 car was never meant to run in the LMS series because the P2 field there has never been that fast except for Olivier Pla in the Quifel ASM zytek. What to do?

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by AGD

1. Perhaps Jonny Kane tested the Highcroft LMP1 car at Sebring a couple weeks ago because Strakka will abandon their LMP2 efforts and race the HPD LMP1 in the LMS later this year? Seems unlikely given that they still have a decent shot at the championship especially if they get a break, but who knows. I know the rumor is that Strakka would like to move into LMP1 eventually, but I don't know if that would be with an ARX-01e or with a new Wirth car.

This year the main objective is to win the LMS LMP2 championship and defend their Le Mans victory. Strakka will only move to LMP1 next year.

[Audi Racer]

is it possible that Honda will provide some funding and turn this into a winning effort?(the P1 coupe). although im sure all the CFD and dravings are done already.

[AGD]

I'm sure HPD would have no problem selling a Wirth P1 Coupe if they believe that teams will buy it. I'm guessing that is why HPD would want to send Highcroft to Europe on a sales demonstration. Would Honda want to make it a factory effort with bigger funding? Your guess is as good as mine at this point. We could say the same thing about Toyota, Nissan, and perhaps even Mazda.

Back to a baseless speculation point I made earlier, I could see how someone like Ferrari would not want to see their name being beaten by an HPD engine that is based on an engine that comes with a $25,000 minivan! At least the Nissan engine has a high performance pedigree.

[Mike_Wooshy]

If anyone listened to RLM During the race they have Robin Brundle in from Lola. He mentioned about the Ferrari engine, said that the reason the program didn't proceed was the boys in Maranello couldn't produce enough engines for LMP's. Take that how every you want. Anyway Back to HPD I think its obvious they are down on power compared to the competition. It appears the ACO have made petrol N/A route more attractive over forced induction. I would like to say the ACO will do something but it appears we must wait till the end of Spa atleast before anything is announced.

[littleman]

I don't believe the ACO have deliberately set out to compromise the LMP2 version of the HPD.After one race, its quite obvious they've got the regs slightly wrong for turbo engines, which I'm sure will be adjusted in time.

I think the ACO were more concerned that the LMP2 HPD had the potential to shame some LMP1 machinery so have over compensated.That V6 turbo can produce circa 700bhp so get the regs wrong and Audi/Peugeot would probably have something to say!

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Mike_Wooshy

If anyone listened to RLM During the race they have Robin Brundle in from Lola. He mentioned about the Ferrari engine, said that the reason the program didn't proceed was the boys in Maranello couldn't produce enough engines for LMP's. Take that how every you want.

Well, Michelotto actually are a good deal behind their original plans in delivering the 458 GT3s to their customers, so there might be some truth to that argument.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by littleman

I don't believe the ACO have deliberately set out to compromise the LMP2 version of the HPD.After one race, its quite obvious they've got the regs slightly wrong for turbo engines, which I'm sure will be adjusted in time.

I think the ACO were more concerned that the LMP2 HPD had the potential to shame some LMP1 machinery so have over compensated.That V6 turbo can produce circa 700bhp so get the regs wrong and Audi/Peugeot would probably have something to say!

You make a good point about trying to keep the HPD LMP2 away from the LMP1s. Perhaps not the diesels, but at least the lower end petrol P1s. The problem with adjusting an error in time, which appears to be after Spa, is that 40% of the LMS season will have been completed by then. That's a shame really.

As far as Ferrari goes, I'm sure they are very busy right now. No doubt. That is a legitimate concern. However, that does not necessarily mean that is their only reservation about going into LMP2. Again, that's just pure speculation on my part, but we see how Fehan goes around blabbing about how he is able to beat cars that are much more expensive. Well, it would be much, much worse to lose to an engine that is in low cost minivans!

[gwyllion]

Adjustments of performance will be made, if necessary, after the first and / or the second race and during all the season by the ACO so that the performance of the best 2010 LMP2 does not exceed the performance of the best 2011 LMP2. These adjustments will be applied identically to all 2010 LMP2 to maintain their hierarchy.

3 races (Sebring, Paul Ricard, Long Beach) and the Le Mans test day will be held before Spa. The ACO will have plenty of data to refine the engine equivalence.

[JAG]

HPD P1 ad in Autosport.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/58821691@N05/5600597050/

[BRG]

On the Highcroft facebook site responding to a question

"They are showing points for full season entrants only. Were not confirmed for the full season at this stage."

[TF110]

I can't wait to see what they can do (P1 car) the rest of this year. And I'm really looking forward to their coupe. I hope the P2 car gets some help though. There's no reason for it to be this slow. We'll see.

[gwyllion]

Good news for the HPD powered LMP2 teams.

Biggest news is that the ACO has given the HPD LMP2 engine a larger restrictor. 1.2mm increase, appx 5% larger.

source: http://twitter.com/johndagys/status/58713560724934656

[The Badger]

Right , let the games begin !!!

Thats good news , wasnt right to see the HPD strangled like that .

[Bentley03]

Excellent news. I'd be interested to know where the ACO believe their original calculations were wrong.

[MulsanneMike]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Good news for the HPD powered LMP2 teams.
source: http://twitter.com/johndagys/status/58713560724934656

I'm told the HPD engine has about 410 at the wheels, thus about 455 at the flywheel. With a 5% bump that should give them about 470-480 now.

[AGD]

Good to hear that changes have been made. How can we expect the HPDs to run now in comparison to the Nissan powered cars? Any ideas?