Oh no, here we go again, another view about GT/GTS regulations

[917Addicted]

Some of you may have read something I said in the GTR thread but i want to make it a better argument.

Nowadays at LM, we have, basically, 4 classes (LMP1, LMP2, GTS and GT), What about just scratch the one with road-going cars that, from the road, have little similarities (yes, I'm talking about GTS), so that a gt3RS can race a murcielago, a 'vette, a 550, a modena (and an M3CSL ) in the same class with the same ruleset (200 road-going cars made in one year), handicapping the cars with bigger engines with more weight (a 575 or a murcielago wheight a lot more than a gt3rs, so that would be fair enough). And, of course, allowing cars that have 4 doors (a 2 door car doen't mean it's a GT, nor a 4door car makes it a TC).
Then you'll say, what about the lister/saleen/mazza? the answer: SuperGT (for 100 roadgoing cars if big manufacturer, or just 20 if you're small), so that people (for example Aston Martin) don't have to build a car with so little things from the roadcar to stay competitive with the mazza (i'm thinking in the db9)...
What do you think???

[Aysedasi]

Originally posted by 917Addicted
And, of course, allowing cars that have 4 doors....

Why the "of course"? You seem to be assuming that should be a "given" - not for me it isn't.

There you go - I got in quick at the start.

Now I shut up.

[917Addicted]

I say this because, in the 20s, the cars that raced at LM had 4doors (and were convertibles btw )
(Maybe, a golf cabrio with 4 doors sould be raced at LM )

[cybersdorf]

How about a stretch limo?

Lincoln Langheck.

[Cadete]

Originally posted by 917Addicted
I say this because, in the 20s, the cars that raced at LM had 4doors (and were convertibles btw )
(Maybe, a golf cabrio with 4 doors sould be raced at LM )

That is because LM in the 20s accepted touring cars :P

Now to the first post, it could work, but it poses some problems, appart from the touring cars in there. It would create a nº1 GT class (SuperGT as you said) that would outrun the nº2 GT class. I can hear you say "but we also have a similar situation today with GTS and GT." Yes, we do, but as long as you have a car, you can enter which class you want, just prepare the car to a bigger or lesser extent. With your proposed system, most people would have to make a new car to enter the class that is more performing.

Another thing, in the GTR thread you said that GTS has little to do with production cars. Yes, they are extremely race-prepared cars, but they all start from production cars and nothing as JGTC-like silhouettes.

[917Addicted]

No Cadete, at that time, people didn't give a sh't to what a tc or a gt was (well, I don't think they had made that distinction then). And LM was a test to roadcars (ok ok, going really OT here)....

As for the gts being silhouttes, no I didn't say they are (thank you Lord, i just hate the current DTM and even more the JGTC!!!), but they are too extreme (carbon fibre everywhere except the chassis), that's why the current GTS class is so bloody expensive. It would be much better to have a class for modenas, gt3rs, db9 eteceterea, than have the current gts where we fit 550, 575, db9 with little resemblance to the road car except for the chassis and the design so that they can race against supercars (saleens, mazza (well, this one is a supercar not made for the road )) which will make the competition in gts even more expensive than lmps.

[Dani Filth]

it wouldn't work .. you can slow down the GTS cars . to Gt level . but you can't get the GTS fuel consumption to GT level ..

[917Addicted]

No Dani, it not about slowing down the current gts cars, it's just about banning them altogether (sorry, the mazza and the m3gtr are not the only ones streching the "spirit of the rules" for me, but this is IMO), but having rules that would accept them in the gt class (with, maybe, more horsepower but more weight than a gt3rs or the modena).
Ofcourse, this is something that would take some years (by 2006 or 2007 maybe).

[Dani Filth]

and still . lap times would be similar . yes . but this is an endurance race . and still those big 6l V12 .eat more fuel then a 4.0l V8 .. . maybe bigger/smaller fuel tanks can solve it ??

[JAG]

Why change a successful formula?

There are 2 GT classes for a very good reason, they cater for two different sectors of road going sportscars, the small, 'junior' supercars like the 360, 911, TVR etc. and the big grand tourers and high powered supercars like the 575, Lamboghini etc.

The 360 and DB9 road cars compete in different markets.

IMO, the GTS cars are not very radical at all. They only have the same 'relatively' minor modications that Super tourers or rally cars recieve. Prodrive are actually building a road going version of their 550 with carbon panels etc.

[917Addicted]

Well JAG, sorry to disagree, GTS have extensive modifications (if not, they wouldn't be as competitive as a Modena or a Saleen (which is a supercar, from a small manufacturer, but still a supercar)).

PS: supertourers and wrc are also cars with are very hitech and and have a lot of modifications to them (that's why one died and one is in some danger because of the high budgets needed to race at the front).

[Aysedasi]

I'll say it again, we are no longer in 1923. Times move on. Raison d'etres change. F1 gets boring (oops, where did that one slip in from..... )......

[Adam43]

*sigh* At this very moment I hope they allow Cinquecentos in and TGF with a new helmet races it to a ten lap victory.

Back on topic. It is true it isn't the 20s anymore. If you look back at the cars then there was less difference in body between tourers and grand tourers (there wasn't a ditinction). As the difference grew then Le Mans embraced the GT side and became was it is today.

[Aysedasi]

Oh **** *** you ******* ****.

There.

That's better.

[Adam43]

Good job there is a censor.

[JAG]

Originally posted by 917Addicted
Well JAG, sorry to disagree, GTS have extensive modifications (if not, they wouldn't be as competitive as a Modena or a Saleen (which is a supercar, from a small manufacturer, but still a supercar)).

PS: supertourers and wrc are also cars with are very hitech and and have a lot of modifications to them (that's why one died and one is in some danger because of the high budgets needed to race at the front).

Of course they are high tech, and expensive, but it is all relative. We are talking about top level, international sportscar racing, not a small national series.

Manufactuers want the opportunity to express their engineering expertise.

Budget increases, from my observations, have little to do with the actuall cost of producing a car, but increased competition and the cost of finding that last tenth of a second.

The supertouring regulations were actually 'budget' regs initially. However, as the competition increased budgets rose from a few hundred thousands pounds to £5m+ as manufactuers spent huge amounts of cash refining ever little detail of their cars, with extensive testing etc.

[billnchristy]

so were gonna go from having a GT(S)uper to a Super GT?

what will you do with the corvettes that have nothing to do with street cars? Do you propose GM build 100 tube frame vettes for the world to destroy on super highways?

I dont see as much a problem with the current setup.

I think cars like the Maserati should be considered GTP or GT1s again...that would be more fair than trying to make a poor porsche keep up with a 550.

[JAG]

Originally posted by billnchristy
so were gonna go from having a GT(S)uper to a Super GT?

what will you do with the corvettes that have nothing to do with street cars? Do you propose GM build 100 tube frame vettes for the world to destroy on super highways?

I dont see as much a problem with the current setup.

I think cars like the Maserati should be considered GTP or GT1s again...that would be more fair than trying to make a poor porsche keep up with a 550.

I'm not going to comment on the C5-R as that particular car was built at a time when the GTS regs were all over the place, and very different to the current regs.

The C6-R however has many similarities to the road car, as has the 550/Lamborghini etc.

[Chevyguy]

917addicted, you really cracked me up. So, reduce down to one class, eliminate Grand Touring Super, then start Super Grand Touring, just so the MC12 has a place to race, and then eliminate all of the MANY new GTS cars? You're joking around, right?

I say just let the MC12 race in GTS, and the other guys will have to catch up. That's the way everyone wants it in LMP, let it be the same for GTS.

[917Addicted]

NO no no, it's nothing like that chevy (I said this is for 2006/2007).
Even though i like the muzza (its looks, because that car should not compete in the fia or the gts at lm), what i really want is to put those grandtourers where they belong (sorry, I'm just not attracted by the current fiagt or gts at lm in the same way i was attracted by the bpr championship) and create a class for proper supercars (i just don't buy the mods the 550 maranello or the 'vette have just to race at gts).

[JAG]

The mods allowed in GTS are vitually identical to those allowed in the BPR days!

Do you want to see 'stock' cars racing, because I certainlly don't.

GTS just allows standard mods as allowed in many other touring/rally series.

[Chevyguy]

GTS, to me, is the GT equivalent of LMP, the place where you see how far you can push the design. I find personal satifaction in seeing the Vette take on the "supercars", so I say bring on the MC12, and P&M will catch them the same way they did Oreca, Saleen, and Prodrive. I think the class you are describing is the one we already have. Maserati played the game within the rules alocated, so nobody has any right to contest that. Let the MC12 race with the same resrictions as everyone else. Is that not the European way?

In regards to your idea of different homologation rules for different sized companies, what would you base large and small on?

[tblincoe]

the current formula works and doesnt need to be changed. the GT ranks have flourished in the current ranks and with the alliance of the ACO/FIA rules package for GTs it will only get better...

the only thing we need are new protos, and this will be taken care of by 2006...


sportscars are exactly where they need to be and with F1 going down the tubes sportscars will become VERY popular over the next 5 years, the transition has already begun with great attendance and TV packages for the ALMS/LMES/LeMans

[Bob Riebe]

Originally posted by JAG

Of course they are high tech, and expensive, but it is all relative. We are talking about top level, international sportscar racing, not a small national series.

Top level, international, hmmmmm, which makes it different from a national series how?
You are far too easily impressed by the word international and other such, meaningless titles.
The old IMSA and the UK Privlege series were as good as it got and they were, jus lil bunch O local podunks wiz more money thans senses.

I'm not going to comment on the C5
-R as that particular car was built at a time when the GTS regs were all over the place, and very different to the current regs.

The C6-R however has many similarities to the road car, as has the 550/Lamborghini etc.

The C6R, hmmmm, it is similar to the road car in which ways that are different from the C5R?

[Bob Riebe]

Originally posted by 917Addicted
No Dani, it not about slowing down the current gts cars, it's just about banning them altogether (sorry, the mazza and the m3gtr are not the only ones streching the "spirit of the rules" for me, but this is IMO), but having rules that would accept them in the gt class (with, maybe, more horsepower but more weight than a gt3rs or the modena).
Ofcourse, this is something that would take some years (by 2006 or 2007 maybe).

This is also something that would drive manufactureres out of ALMS in the blink of an eye.
Slowing cars down, even further, it smells of GARRA. How about Porsche building a car that can keep-up?

Bob