Plumbed in Extinguishers - Marshall's instructions?

Speedy5 · 12 Jan 2006, 10:46 (Ref:1499784)

I will be running with a Plumbed-in Fire Extingusher for the first time this year, but I, like a few others I'm sure, am worried that an over-enthusiastic marshall will pull the lever at the slightest wiff of smoke. What instructions are given to Marshalls concerning these? Are they advised to use their hand-held extinguishers first and only activate the plumbed-in system as a last resort? And ONLY if they see a Fire? I have had head-gasket failures before and they produce a lot of smoke!!

JimW · 12 Jan 2006, 11:18 (Ref:1499813)

Hi Speedy

I do fire training for marshals (race and rally) and the question often arises. The answers are rather different for race and for rally.

Race "On board extinguishers are much, much less effective than the ones issued to marshals. Don't pay any attention to the ones fitted in a car, use the one you have." This relies on the circuit having sufficient marshals with the right equipment.

Several reasons for this. In no particular order:

Car extinguisher is only pointing at a few (2 or 3) fixed locations chosen in advance when it is being installed. The marshal can direct their attention to the seat of the fire.

The car extinguisher uses only one type of extinguishant whereas circuits have both dry powder and foam which, used together, provide a much more effective result.

Marshals almost always can distinguish between clouds of steam and a fire (but mistakes have been known!)

On board extinguishers are pretty useless at major fires but the marshals acting properly can deal with really large and life-threatening blazes.

You have to pay to refill your extinguisher but not for ones used by marshals.

They need the experience!

Note that this does not apply to track/test days where there will not be the same number of people within the same few seconds of your accident.

Rally Unless you have your fire at start, finish or within sight of the very few marshals who will have an extinguisher, then you are on your own. Fit not only what the regs require but at least one other which can be unplugged and used by driver/co-driver. Get yourself some training in their use.

While we are on the subject: Make sure that you help the marshals not only by using the markings in the Blue Book but by labelling them ELECTRICS and FIRE in large friendly letters. The reason for this? All marshals are told as rule number one of fire prevention to isolate the electrics. The Blue Book (copied from the FIA) says that the electrics are marked with a “lightening flash” and the Extinguisher with an “E”. To my literal mind E means electrics and I still find myself having to think that this is wrong as I run towards a car. So the additional labels which I advocate are just a bit of extra insurance.

Regards

Jim

deadsquirrel · 12 Jan 2006, 11:29 (Ref:1499825)

And avoid the poxy system of one 'emergency pull' where pull 'once' for electrics and harder for extinguisher (although I've not seen those for a LONG time)

When you label the pulls - think about whether you mark the handles AS well as some adjacent piece of bodywork - if you mark the bonnet, and then lose it in the incident, the marshal's got a lottery as to which handle to pull (in doubt, should pull both, obviously checking (hoping!) that first one is the electrics!)

JimW · 12 Jan 2006, 11:35 (Ref:1499833)

Quote:

Originally Posted by deadsquirrel

And avoid the poxy system of one 'emergency pull' where pull 'once' for electrics and harder for extinguisher (although I've not seen those for a LONG time)

. . . .

Totally agree. Sadly many International series follow this (FIA mandated) route. F3, World series Renault, A1GP (I think).

Regards

Jim

Hepatic · 12 Jan 2006, 17:29 (Ref:1499993)

Having had some practical experience of this last year (thanks to the fantastic Gold Cup

) i can tell you that in most cases, if the car has just pulled off and not stuffed it in to the scenery, the driver will know what the problem is and direct the marshals as to where the problem is and if it really needs to be knocked down. Obviously some people don't like powder thrown all over their nice car as its not easy to get off a hot engine, but better that than have no car left.

I try not to touch any releases on the car unless i have to. If the driver is not hurt and out of the car, i'll usually ask them to turn the electrics off and use their extinguisher if necessary. That way if the wrong one is pulled, it's not my fault!! I did see one onboard extinguisher released on a Golf a couple of years ago, and tbh it wasn't worth the effort. Nothing will be as effective as a band of orange-clad folks at putting a fire out

Oh, and we try to use them as little as possible, as the powder has some pretty unpleasant effects on the human body when it's breathed in.....

Andy77 · 12 Jan 2006, 18:00 (Ref:1500008)

errm a stupid question from a fire station member. Why don´t you use CO2 extinguishers instead of powder ? it is clean anyways and you dont get that dumb smell of the powder into the nose

deadsquirrel · 12 Jan 2006, 18:22 (Ref:1500025)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy77

errm a stupid question from a fire station member. Why don´t you use CO2 extinguishers instead of powder ? it is clean anyways and you dont get that dumb smell of the powder into the nose

Not very effective outdoors!

deadsquirrel · 12 Jan 2006, 19:20 (Ref:1500054)

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimW

Totally agree. Sadly many International series follow this (FIA mandated) route. F3, World series Renault, A1GP (I think).

Regards

Jim

I should get out to more international events !

scorch · 12 Jan 2006, 19:34 (Ref:1500057)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy77

Why don´t you use CO2 extinguishers instead of powder ?

For F1 Tests, (obviously not he gp) they always insisted on Halon, so that a small gearbox fire will not mean the end of the days testing. it would put the fire out but not leave powder everywhere.

alec · 12 Jan 2006, 20:16 (Ref:1500105)

Plus CO2 makes it easier for the fire to re-ignite.

JimW · 12 Jan 2006, 20:34 (Ref:1500119)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy77

errm a stupid question from a fire station member. Why don´t you use CO2 extinguishers instead of powder ? it is clean anyways and you dont get that dumb smell of the powder into the nose

Because CO2 is, compared to Dry powder (especially an expensive version such as Monnex(TM)), absolutely rubbish.

Added to the performance of the actual extinguishant, the extinguishers are very heavy, probably beyond an individual's capacity to carry (media weight for weight) and there is poorer performance when considering the duration of effectiveness. Add to that the negligible effects on human health of dry powder (sick-making perhaps but no real problem) compared with the danger of CO2 burns.

Regards

Jim

Sheila M · 12 Jan 2006, 21:23 (Ref:1500153)

Speedy5, if you should be unlucky enough to be on fire when you come into the pit lane, rest assured that I have instructed my team, at least, that foam is preferable as an extinguishant first (it can be nicely washed off causing as little damage as possible to your engine). Only if all else failed would we even consider using your on board extinguisher.

Obviously, if it was a raging conflagration we'd use everything possible that was to hand to extinguish it!

Gnomex · 12 Jan 2006, 22:10 (Ref:1500197)

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimW

[size=3]

While we are on the subject: Make sure that you help the marshals not only by using the markings in the Blue Book but by labelling them ELECTRICS and FIRE in large friendly letters. The reason for this? All marshals are told as rule number one of fire prevention to isolate the electrics. The Blue Book (copied from the FIA) says that the electrics are marked with a “lightening flash” and the Extinguisher with an “E”. To my literal mind E means electrics and I still find myself having to think that this is wrong as I run towards a car. So the additional labels which I advocate are just a bit of extra insurance.

Regards

Jim

I am totally with you on that. My mind also works along the "E = electrics" lines that you describe. Even after all these years!

Suggestion - why can't the Blue Book be consisent and have symbols for BOTH - with a fire bottle symbol for the extinguisher? Or am I missing the point????

**Woolley** · 12 Jan 2006, 22:23 (Ref:1500205)

I presume it's international rather than blue book, so that at least we get consistency with foreign or international series. At which point you have to accept you're dealing with the same people who decided all extinguishers should be red.

The only time I would ever consider pulling the onboard is if there is a driver trapped and the inside of the car is on fire. If the outside is burning, I'm not putting my hand in to get to a fiddly switch!

jim69 · 12 Jan 2006, 22:58 (Ref:1500236)

Quote:

Originally Posted by scorch

For F1 Tests, (obviously not he gp) they always insisted on Halon, so that a small gearbox fire will not mean the end of the days testing. it would put the fire out but not leave powder everywhere.

I thought Halon had been banned, a couple of years ago, as it has a nasty effect on the ozone layer.

Andy77 · 13 Jan 2006, 10:36 (Ref:1500413)

Quote:

Originally Posted by jim69

I thought Halon had been banned, a couple of years ago, as it has a nasty effect on the ozone layer.

about the only place i have seen halon ones were in german tanks during my army time in the Leopard 2 A4 & A5 battle tanks. I know coz I had to repair this tank all around its weapon during my army time. Other than that halon got banned here between starting and mid 90´s.

rescue dude · 13 Jan 2006, 10:58 (Ref:1500418)

I wouldn't fancy being inside a tank with someone using a Halon extinguisher!!!

The STIG · 13 Jan 2006, 11:02 (Ref:1500424)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gnomex

Iwhy can't the Blue Book be consisent and have symbols for BOTH - with a fire bottle symbol for the extinguisher?

A Flame prehaps?

The STIG · 13 Jan 2006, 11:04 (Ref:1500425)

Quote:

Originally Posted by rescue dude

I wouldn't fancy being inside a tank with someone using a Halon extinguisher!!!

Halon = Green bottles right? The last place I saw one of those was abord my school bus - about 3 - 4 years ago... I thought they'd been banned as well.

deadsquirrel · 13 Jan 2006, 11:09 (Ref:1500427)

Quote:

Originally Posted by The STIG

Halon = Green bottles right? The last place I saw one of those was abord my school bus - about 3 - 4 years ago... I thought they'd been banned as well.

When did they ban school buses?

The STIG · 13 Jan 2006, 12:28 (Ref:1500458)

Quote:

Originally Posted by deadsquirrel

When did they ban school buses?

These buses were in such a state that they should have been banned!

Dave Brand · 13 Jan 2006, 14:10 (Ref:1500516)

Quote:

Originally Posted by The STIG

A Flame prehaps?

That's the standard symbol for flammable materials!

The STIG · 13 Jan 2006, 14:55 (Ref:1500535)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

That's the standard symbol for flammable materials!

oops! prehaps not then.

Hepatic · 13 Jan 2006, 17:44 (Ref:1500622)

Um, i'm sure the fire-suppressant systems in the server rooms at work use Halon still....i might be wrong, but we also got Asbestos in some of the walls so anythings possible!

CombeMarshal · 13 Jan 2006, 18:12 (Ref:1500641)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hepatic

Um, I'm sure the fire-suppressant systems in the server rooms at work use Halon still....i might be wrong, but we also got Asbestos in some of the walls so anythings possible!

Up till about a couple of years ago It was Halon (but they now use Argon) It destroys the oxygen very efectivly, And we need that to breath, Not good if your trapped in a Server room (or car)
That's why on Terminator 2 they have to wear breathing apperators when they break into Cyberdine research, but Arnie's hard so he was fine!

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