Sportscar/GT (and Le Mans) Rumours and Repetition

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by deggis

There would be still at least two more seasons (2016, 2017) and the official widthdrawal announcement might not come until 2017.

Audi has been going to F1 since, what 2006?

[deggis]

Originally Posted by MoMedic9019

Audi has been going to F1 since, what 2006?

Where was Porsche and was Red Bull without an engine in 2006?

I'm prepared for the outcome that has been pretty much predicted ever since Porsche came. Apparently some other want to just put fingers in their ears and sing la-la-la-la.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by deggis

Where was Porsche and was Red Bull without an engine in 2006?

I'm prepared for the outcome that has been pretty much prediceted since Porsche came. Apparently some other want to just put fingers in their ears and sing la-la-la-la.

It's not really putting fingers in your ears though. It's more a case of beating the dead horse. I'm not saying it won't happen, but we've had a decade of these rumours and there's no reason to suggest it'll happen now. If VAG were considering entering, then Red Bull would've dropped Renault at a heartbeat.

Also got to consider what there is to gain for VAG. They'll enter what points to a very abusive relationship with Red Bull and be given no credit should they be successful, but shoulder all the blame should they not be. The risk is high, as it appears as F1 PUs are quite fiddly for whatever reason (with 50% of the engine builders struggling), and best case scenario is they win under somebody elses branding, rather than their own.

[Giba]

Originally Posted by MoMedic9019

Audi has been going to F1 since, what 2006?

There were rumours even in 2002!

However I do think that they are more likely to leave than previous rumours. But I would be surprised if they left the DTM/Class One category as they are part way through development and wasting that would seem very unAudi

[GT6]

There are always loads of rumours but after the US courts remove huge sums of cash from VAG for their diesel law breaking and the costs of fixing the cars there. plus a good chance they will need to sort out european cars it could be that other expenditure by VAG group might be cut back and an enormous F1 expenditure might be pushing the boat to far for the shareholders despite what some in VAG might want to do.

[deggis]

Their stock dropped 20% today. Of course this is somewhat temporal but the image damage is going to be a long lasting. Tbh, they deserve it.

[J Jay]

The fines aren't confirmed yet are they? But I would be very surprised if VW weren't slapped with a big one following this.

Normally I would say that a company of VW's size could absorb a hit and still make expensive plans (like entering F1) because they have that much in reserve, but that may not be the case here.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

It's not really putting fingers in your ears though. It's more a case of beating the dead horse. I'm not saying it won't happen, but we've had a decade of these rumours and there's no reason to suggest it'll happen now.

Most of the previous occasions I've shrugged off, but this time the timing just seems to make more sense.

If VAG were considering entering, then Red Bull would've dropped Renault at a heartbeat.

They just did that couple of weeks ago.

Also got to consider what there is to gain for VAG. They'll enter what points to a very abusive relationship with Red Bull and be given no credit should they be successful, but shoulder all the blame should they not be. The risk is high, as it appears as F1 PUs are quite fiddly for whatever reason (with 50% of the engine builders struggling)

The main scenario in the rumor(s) is buying majority stake of the team, so there's no anymore Red Bull Racing in the current form if that happens, and Red Bull only becomes a sponsor. If anything Renault and to a lesser extent Honda has now proven that only engine supplying is the wrong way to do it.

and best case scenario is they win under somebody elses branding, rather than their own.

And for the past 15 years they've been turning down left and right LMP1 title sponsorship offers from the the top 10 brands list?

[divxx]

The fact that this cheating fiasco is specifically about their diesel technology, advertisements for which VW have begun to scrub from TV and the internet, I fear it's a direct threat to the Audi LMP1 project, which, from a business standpoint, can be distilled into one big marketing campaign for VW diesel.

[chernaudi]

When one considers that Hyundai and GM paid off the US Government for relative pennies on the dollar for their MPG cheating and ignition switch scandals respectively, it's only fair that VW gets to do the same with their emissions regs gaming. And there, it does bare remembering that EU regs don't stigmatize NOx like North America does and vice versa.

And as for the F1 rumors, how many times since 2000 has there been rumors of Volkswagen Group entering F1? I'll believe it when I see it.

[TF110]

Hyundai didnt install a device to deceive, theyre cars just didnt meet what was on the label. 'False advertising'. Not comparable to what VW did.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by TF110

Hyundai didnt install a device to deceive, theyre cars just didnt meet what was on the label. 'False advertising'. Not comparable to what VW did.

VW didn't install a device, they programmed the computer to under certain circumstances lower the emissions. Those circumstances matched perfectly those within emissions are tested. Volkswagen admitted to this, but no devices were installed, so yes, they cheated, but so did Hyundai/Kia.

This issue is located solely to the US, as NOx is still a disputed emission, with high political sensitivity.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by CTD

VW didn't install a device, they programmed the computer to under certain circumstances lower the emissions. Those circumstances matched perfectly those within emissions are tested. Volkswagen admitted to this, but no devices were installed, so yes, they cheated, but so did Hyundai/Kia.

This issue is located solely to the US, as NOx is still a disputed emission, with high political sensitivity.

Semantics. A device is a general term. Hyundai didnt program their cars to give off readings that were false. They gave a false estimation on fuel economy. Ford has the same problem but you hear nothing about their hybrids failing to meet advertised claims.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by divxx

The fact that this cheating fiasco is specifically about their diesel technology, advertisements for which VW have begun to scrub from TV and the internet, I fear it's a direct threat to the Audi LMP1 project, which, from a business standpoint, can be distilled into one big marketing campaign for VW diesel.

To what degree are Euro VAG Diesels affected, and what percentage of overall VAG sales are Diesels in North America? If they completely lost their Diesel market in North America, does that really affect their global strategy?

[chernaudi]

And it has to be remembered that North America villianize NOx more than CO and CO2, while in Europe (and most of the rest of the world, who's emission standards for the most part closely mirror EU regs), it's currently the opposite.

That's why, among other reasons, that NA, the EU, the FIA and UN standardize on vehicle regs. One standard, no more of these guys going their own way.

The latter happens enough in auto racing for example, as it is among other things.

[chernaudi]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

To what degree are Euro VAG Diesels affected, and what percentage of overall VAG sales are Diesels in North America? If they completely lost their Diesel market in North America, does that really affect their global strategy?

Currently all VW diesel engines--including the 2 liter 4-cylinders in question (the VW 3.0 TDI isn't listed, and I think is currently only available in the Audi Q7)--meet EU regs.

But as I mentioned above, US vs EU regs are like night and day in several regards, too.

[TF110]

New rumors of Jenson Button retiring from F1 next year to join the wec. If he joins, I expect it to be with an lmp1 team... Toyota? Nissan? One of the VAG teams? I think another Japanese team is in the cards honestly with his g/f and history with Honda.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by deggis

Most of the previous occasions I've shrugged off, but this time the timing just seems to make more sense.


They just did that couple of weeks ago.


The main scenario in the rumor(s) is buying majority stake of the team, so there's no anymore Red Bull Racing in the current form if that happens, and Red Bull only becomes a sponsor. If anything Renault and to a lesser extent Honda has now proven that only engine supplying is the wrong way to do it.


And for the past 15 years they've been turning down left and right LMP1 title sponsorship offers from the the top 10 brands list?

It's been rumoured so many times that of course eventually one rumour will make sense. And Red Bull haven't dropped Renault - the relationship got so bad that neither want to work with each other. The idea that Red Bull have dropped Renault would suggest that they have a back-up plan. But the back-up plan is either beg VAG to enter, or packup and leave.

The fact that Audi and Porsche do not run title sponsorship is further proof to the VAG agenda. They want to win with their car. Their technology. Their headlines. They don't want the car to be plastered with everybody elses logos, and a car designed by other people.

So lets be realistic. Why do the VAG rumours have merit this time? Because Red Bull are having a hissy fit?

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by TF110

New rumors of Jenson Button retiring from F1 next year to join the wec. If he joins, I expect it to be with an lmp1 team... Toyota? Nissan? One of the VAG teams? I think another Japanese team is in the cards honestly with his g/f and history with Honda.

It's more than simply rumor at this point - Button's actively hinting at retirement. But everything beyond that is indeed just rumor with nothing to support it yet. It's also rumored he'll be balancing WEC with presenting the revamped Top Gear.

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by TF110

New rumors of Jenson Button retiring from F1 next year to join the wec. If he joins, I expect it to be with an lmp1 team... Toyota? Nissan? One of the VAG teams? I think another Japanese team is in the cards honestly with his g/f and history with Honda.

Wait, I thought Le Mans isn't for him since it involves passing slower cars all the time and he can't be arsed to do that?

He can stay away for all I care, the last thing the WEC needs is F1 drivers that treat the series as some sort of retirement plan when all their options in the so-called pinnacle of motorsports are exhausted.

[Coach Ep]

Originally Posted by Acid09

Wait, I thought Le Mans isn't for him since it involves passing slower cars all the time and he can't be arsed to do that?

He can stay away for all I care, the last thing the WEC needs is F1 drivers that treat the series as some sort of retirement plan when all their options in the so-called pinnacle of motorsports are exhausted.

His motivation is the only thing standing between him and good performances on track (assuming he does find himself a ride). Knowing WEC's fetish for F1, I'd say they're pretty active behind the scene trying to move things into a direction where Button gets a chance to compete with one of the top 3 manufacturers.

[Mal]

Their woes in F1 make it unlikely - but it would be nice to see a McLaren Honda LMP1

[Deleted]

McLaren doesn't have any desire in Le Mans return unless they can win it overall with GT car

Honda (the parent company) has never had particularly great interest towards Le Mans in the first place

Button doesn't give rats ass about anything below F1

[J Jay]

I'm not sure if this means much of anything on the motorsport side, but there are unconfirmed reports that Porsche CEO Matthias Muller is being readied to replace Martin Winterkorn when he inevitably steps down. Nothing on this officially yet, but as more countries get in on the act it does look likely that Winterkorn will have to go.

(Link auf Deutsch, but I think my rudimentary German got this much at least).

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

And Red Bull haven't dropped Renault - the relationship got so bad that neither want to work with each other. The idea that Red Bull have dropped Renault would suggest that they have a back-up plan. But the back-up plan is either beg VAG to enter, or packup and leave.

It is understood Red Bull has issued a document requesting a termination of the partnership that will be accepted by Renault.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/120696

Renault says they're "renegotiating" the contract, which kind of confirms above as otherwise they would have a valid contract.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/120825

The fact that Audi and Porsche do not run title sponsorship is further proof to the VAG agenda. They want to win with their car. Their technology. Their headlines. They don't want the car to be plastered with everybody elses logos, and a car designed by other people.

Yeah right. So last year's F1 constructor's champion is Petronas and Peugeot was actually a car named Total. And that agenda isn't very company-wide agenda considering the size of Red Bull stickers on the VW Polo WRC car.

No big sponsor => get a lot of small sponsors. As in WEC, including Toyota.
Have one big sponsor => less need for small sponsors. As seen in F1, Nascar etc.

I've brought this up so many times, but no one ever agrees with me. Apparently easier to pretend everything is perfect and completely deny the possibility that WEC may have an issue with attracting sponsors.