Can the R&S MKIIIC be a contender?

[H16]

Ever since it debuted at Sebring in 2001, the reviews have been somewhat mixed. Dyson ran it for a year before opting to run the older MKIIIs and eventually the MG Lolas, but JMR showed real potenial with the car at times.

I know that from an outside view, the car appears somewhat "lowtech", with front radiators, hybrid aluminum/steel construction, and aside from a low frontal area, nothing particurally striking.

However, looks can be decieving. The car ran strong at Petite Le Mans, and now with Michelin tires and another year with the Elan engine, I wonder if the MKIIIC can finally break it's jinx and become a winner?

I am a big fan of the car, as it is American made (tires excluded now), and follows the MKIII linage. I for one hope that it has as long a life as it's predacessor.

[cybersdorf]

At Le Mans, no.
In the ALMS, possibly.

[Lee Janotta]

It doesn't have the top speed it needs for LeMans, but anywhere else it's a strong contender.

The semi-monocoque chassis is strong and well-proven, as is the Elan engine. I can't imagine why people aren't beating down the doors to get this car!

Rob Dyson seemed to just enjoy switching chassis last year. The MkIIIC, the MkIIIA, the Crawford, the MG... Maybe he'll get down to the serious business of running a winning team now that he won't be involved with Grand-Am anymore. With Leightziger, Wallace, and Weaver in the MGs with Goodyears, I'd say they've got a better chance than anyone else of upsetting the Joest Audis this year. Just so long as Rob doesn't put his son in.

Jon Lewis, BTW, has purchased Dyson's MkIIIC, and plans to campaign it in a handful of ALMS rounds this year.

[H16]

Yes, he was on the IMSA board being quizzed on it I believe. I think the car is now back at the factory being updated, proabably with those winglets that JMR ran late in 2002.

I was suprised he was going to keep Lazaro as engine supplier, I think the Elan gives more power and is certianly more reliable (except at Le Mans apparently ).

[Fogelhund]

Dyson didn't campaign the car in 02', rather it was in 01' that it saw a few races.

The car underwent extensive work during 01' to fix what was wrong with it, and I believe that JMR has a decent chance to compete for overall at a number of tracks this coming year.

[Lee Janotta]

Lazaro? ****.

[cybersdorf]

Lozano - the engine builder.

[cybersdorf]

The American Spirit Racing car is ex-Matthews btw.

[IanGrohse]

Personally, I LOVE the MkIIIC....Its beuty is in it's symplicity....I think the front mount radiator is great. And I LOVE the front diffuser exits...on the side of the cocpit in the top. Its not only clean, it adds to the air following a sloped upward plane....

And the steel space frame....I love it. Its not an aluminum/steel hybrid.......Its a conventional steel space frame with carbon fiber paneling rivited into the sides, and floorboard. It looks super sturdy, though I would change the design of the the front bulkhead triangulation. There are a couple of areas that look like they went for sheer mass of the tubes to add ridgity rather than more efficiant triangulation.....But thats just speculation as I dont have the computer programs they used.

But its atractive. And it was really fast at Petite. Also, the suspension I believe is very well engineered, as Riley and Scotts have always gotten amazing mechanical grip. This of course is good for US style courses, and compliments it's torquy Elan engine quite well.

[cybersdorf]

Yep, a very nice car. I'd like to see one in FIA competition.

[Lee Janotta]

Originally posted by cybersdorf
Lozano - the engine builder.

Yeah, typo, sorry...

It'll probably be inadequate just like the Roush "Lincoln" engines.

I'm sure it's a good Grand-Am engine... But not up to par for ALMS, like the Elan is.

I thought Matthew's car was written off in the PLM crash?

[C_g]

It definitely has a shot of a win on some of the slower US tracks. I was really surprised at how well it ran at Road Atlanta relative to the Audis, a track that is considered to be quite fast.

It's going to need serious aero development if they want it to be successful at Le Mans though. It's not nearly efficient enough right now I think.

[Fogelhund]

Originally posted by cybersdorf
The American Spirit Racing car is ex-Matthews btw.

Actually it is ex-Dyson, not ex-Matthews.

[H16]

Fastdetails has a couple of photos up of the Matthews car testing at Sebring with it's new Michelin rubber. Great looking car as last year.

The MKIIIs only weakness was it's heavy drag, which meant that despite the best efforts of the factory and private teams, the car never had a chance at Le Mans. I suppose Riley's theory was that "same theory with less drag=Le Mans contender". Of course, the original version had a severe lack of front end grip, and it still has a lot of winglett profile on the front, but its coming around.

[Lee Janotta]

It needs a special longtail package for LeMans.

Even then, though, it'd lose to the turbo cars on fuel consumption.

[veeten]

If that's the case, maybe they should talk to R&M Racing.

This, to me, provides a reason as to why FIA/ALMS/ACO is the better series. Looking at the MkIII, it's evident that this chassis has some shortcommings as to certain types of tracks it can be competitive on, as the original design shows.
www.remracing.com/foto_centro_tecnica_eng.html

But by addressing the problem of rear downforce, the idea of an extended tail designed for such a car can be concieved and built.
www.remracing.com/2002/17_foto_galleria_eng.html

Front end can be modified for the same results;
Before. www.remracing.com/2002/04_foto_galleria_eng.html
and After www.remracing.com/2002/23_foto_galleria_eng.html

as you can see, it doesn't take a genious (or maybe, in some circles, it does... ) to figure that a few aero-tweaks can produce a more stable and raceable chassis without major re-structuring.

Just imagine what could've been done with the Crawford SSC in a similar fashion...

[Tim Northcutt]

R&S will be a contender this year, the endplates help a great deal on the townforce with less drag, and now that they have good tires (they lost grip late in the runs at Petit on Dunlops) they will be in the hunt....

Bob & Bill Riley know how to build race cars...

[cybersdorf]

Originally posted by Fogelhund
Actually it is ex-Dyson, not ex-Matthews.

Mhm, you're right, my mistake.

[Tim Northcutt]

The R&M's general design looks like --

Surprise!

The Old R&S MKIII that was replaced by the MkIIIC in 2001...

I agree with the assessment concerning the tail tweaks to help the R&S MkIIIC for Le Mans, but the R&M front end revision is pretty similar to what R&S runs now...R&S doesn't run the heavy dive planes on on the front at a track like Le Mans...

A note about the Le Mans course to consider...

Before 1990, Le Mans was definitely a "speed" course with the 3km Mulsanne Straight, as an example.

However, with the various chicanes added over the past decade ( as well as the Dunlop Curves for last year) and the rule that a straight couldn't be longer than 1 km. (that chopped up the Mulsanne into pieces separated by small chicanes), Le Mans is a lot more of a "downforce" course now than it ever was...

to the point where in reality it has become a "downforce, without creating too much drag (given the laws of physics)" circuit...

The front & back straights at the Indy 500 (at 5/8 mile each) are as long (or a little longer) than any portion of the now "chopped up" Mulsanne Straight....although it is totally different racing, Indy is a "downforce without drag" track...it is the only way an IRL car can go through four 90 degree left-handers at 225 m.p.h. and still get down the straightaways...

Look at how Racing for Holland struggled with the Audis in the early going at Le Mans last June...It had the straight line speed to stay with the Audis, but not nearly enough downforce in the curves....where Audi ate them up...

[veeten]

then, there's what they built into the design of the R8 last year that enabled them to take the turns faster than the previous year; the very same idea of endplates.

If one looks at the Toyota GT-1, this is where the idea, at least to my knowledge, was seen. It gave the car fantastic stability, lap after lap. The only thing that did them in was the tires, the right rear going away so close to the end of the '99 LeMans.

If only Oreca had gone ahead and used their endplate-designed Dallara, along with the Pescarolo Courage, it would've been more competition for the Audis.
As for the Dome, they could've had the design in their cars. So why they didn't use this idea in the S101, is anyone's guess. They probably didn't see the need for it, at the time.

In the R&S MkIIIc, the use of endplates has proved invaluable to the chassis' further development, along with the inclusion of Michelin rubber. The real test comes next month, at Sebring.

[cybersdorf]

Originally posted by Tim Northcutt
The R&M's general design looks like --

Surprise!

The Old R&S MKIII that was replaced by the MkIIIC in 2001...

Not a surprise at all - R&M started out running a Mk.III.

[paul-collins]

Originally posted by veeten
If only Oreca had gone ahead and used their endplate-designed Dallara, along with the Pescarolo Courage, it would've been more competition for the Audis.

Not sure about that. Although de Chaunac stated prior to the race that "we feel we should have half a second to one second gain per lap," ORECA ran the last bit of warm-up/qualifying head-to-head, one car with the fins and one without. (Quote from dsc.)

For the race, as you know, they opted for "without." A potential reason why from dailysportscar: "removing the tail section single-handed is extremely difficult with the fins - as a driver would have to do if he had trouble on the track during the race."

[C_g]

The fins on the ORECA cars also did not overlap with the wing endplate like the R&S ones did. Thus, because the rear fender structure wasn't as sturdy as the Audis, the fins were sucked inward at speed, probably reducing their effectiveness.

So does anybody know if Doran is going to get the latest ORECA updates for his Dallara for running in the ALMS?

[Liz]

Is this the one Michael Lewis will run? I saw him in Trans Am and the way he could run without ever filling up with fuel was astounding. I'm looking forward to seeing him in ALMS if this is his car.

[cybersdorf]

www.americanspiritracing.com