BTCC- what is this obsession with safety cars?

**Born Racer** · 30 Mar 2008, 16:00 (Ref:2165236)

That first-lap accident should've brought out the red flag. It was always going to take a while to clean the debris up.

As it is, they wasted about 7 laps, a quarter of the race!

Oh look- another! I know they give them some laps back, but even so..

safc_fan89 · 30 Mar 2008, 16:03 (Ref:2165243)

No point stopping the race if you don't have to.

Knowlesy · 30 Mar 2008, 16:15 (Ref:2165259)

TV innit.

Bramzel · 30 Mar 2008, 16:27 (Ref:2165281)

They definitely were too eager getting the thing out today.

crmalcolm · 30 Mar 2008, 17:32 (Ref:2165319)

Can anyone explain the need for the 2nd safety car in race 3 today?

I know it's needed if a car is in a dangerous position, yet Shedden was still moving. The safety car was rushed out before Shedden had even come to a standstill, even though he went on to drive the car into a safe position negating the need for the safety car.

I don't think tv can be blamed during the BTCC races because with ITV4's extended coverage this year, there is no longer a need to have the race finished in a tight time-frame.

**Asp** · 30 Mar 2008, 17:55 (Ref:2165333)

Quote:

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Can anyone explain the need for the 2nd safety car in race 3 today?

I know it's needed if a car is in a dangerous position, yet Shedden was still moving. The safety car was rushed out before Shedden had even come to a standstill, even though he went on to drive the car into a safe position negating the need for the safety car.

Just a case of someone jumping the gun a bit. If they hadn't deployed it and then needed it, the pack would have passed by the danger zone at speed - leading to questions about where the SC is.
With Brands Indy being such a short circuit, you don't really have the time to think about the decision and see how things develop whilst the pack approaches the startline.
In heinsight, the decision should have been delayed - but it was probably a quick "Yes/No" call by the Clerk, and on that occasion they made a mistake. We all make them!

duke_toaster · 30 Mar 2008, 17:56 (Ref:2165334)

Maybe the race director was a bit over-eager?

Red Baron · 30 Mar 2008, 18:59 (Ref:2165392)

Having just watched all 3 races on Sky+, I'd say that the problem has been not the number of times the SC was deployed, but the number of laps it has been out for each time.

How long does it take to snatch a car out of the gravel at Paddock (Collard - Race 2) for instance.....

Rosie

westfieldbend · 30 Mar 2008, 19:22 (Ref:2165408)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Baron

How long does it take to snatch a car out of the gravel at Paddock (Collard - Race 2) for instance.....

a long time,
that was the slowest snatch vehicle i have seen in ages..
struggled to even get to its position in the morning.

Hazard · 30 Mar 2008, 19:24 (Ref:2165411)

Quote:

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Can anyone explain the need for the 2nd safety car in race 3 today?

I know it's needed if a car is in a dangerous position, yet Shedden was still moving. The safety car was rushed out before Shedden had even come to a standstill, even though he went on to drive the car into a safe position negating the need for the safety car.

I don't think tv can be blamed during the BTCC races because with ITV4's extended coverage this year, there is no longer a need to have the race finished in a tight time-frame.

He wasn't moving when the safety car was called...he was just sprawled across the track in a VERY dangerous position...however, they managed to get it rolling down the bank but by then it was too late and the SC was on track.

redshoes · 30 Mar 2008, 19:40 (Ref:2165435)

Quote:

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

Maybe the race director was a bit over-eager?

Oddly in the proceeding Clio race the reverse was true, there was a Clio left in what even Titchmarsh in the commentary box described as marginal. Far be it from me to suggest there may have been some other motive involved *cough* TV *cough*

gregc · 30 Mar 2008, 20:23 (Ref:2165468)

Quote:

Originally Posted by redshoes

Oddly in the proceeding Clio race the reverse was true, there was a Clio left in what even Titchmarsh in the commentary box described as marginal. Far be it from me to suggest there may have been some other motive involved *cough* TV *cough*

Have to agree, we were watching at Paddock and every time someone got slightly out of shape coming down the hill I was worried - really thought that car was left in a dangerous spot.

JimW · 30 Mar 2008, 20:32 (Ref:2165474)

Hands up those who don't understand that Alan Gow deploys the safety car whenever he is bored with the racing and thinks it needs closing up.

Come on chaps, pay attention (or listen to the TOCA radio

).

Regards

Jim

tator2001uk · 30 Mar 2008, 20:45 (Ref:2165488)

hahaha what about the bmw facing the wrong way on the main straight......look at how easy(last race last lap) someone could have been forced wide and gone into the wall in same point, wrecking cars and also injuring people.....that clio was left in a stupendous position..... did really enjoy the racing on tv...even my mum was hooked...might have to go to an event this year too!!

Red Baron · 30 Mar 2008, 20:56 (Ref:2165501)

I didn't think that the BMW on the main straight in race 3 was too much of a problem......

You're right about the racing on TV though; I thought it made pretty good viewing.

Rosie

**Stephen Green** · 30 Mar 2008, 21:40 (Ref:2165560)

If any of you marshal at race meetings (Rosie excepted) you would have known how dangerous it would have been to have gone trackside to help out. In all cases the cars were in a dangerous position should another car have gone off at the same place (with the exception of the BMW which was reasonably safe). Alan Gow has no control over when the safety car is deployed, it is the decision of the Clerk of the Course and is ALWAYS taken on the grounds of safety either for the driver or marshals/recover/rescue crews

racer69 · 31 Mar 2008, 05:47 (Ref:2165816)

Quote:

Originally Posted by redshoes

Oddly in the proceeding Clio race the reverse was true, there was a Clio left in what even Titchmarsh in the commentary box described as marginal. Far be it from me to suggest there may have been some other motive involved *cough* TV *cough*

Exact same thing happens in Australia. A safe position for a car to rest in during a support race is an unsafe position to rest in during a V8Supercar race....

Needless safety car periods are par for the course these days though, just look at the recent Australian Grand Prix

JimW · 31 Mar 2008, 06:18 (Ref:2165826)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen Green

. . . Alan Gow has no control over when the safety car is deployed, it is the decision of the Clerk of the Course and is ALWAYS taken on the grounds of safety either for the driver or marshals/recover/rescue crews

Then we'll just have to disagree about that.

Jim

westfieldbend · 31 Mar 2008, 06:52 (Ref:2165838)

Whose idea was it to send the safety car out of the pit lane insted of cooper straight, as in the support categories.
It is sent out on cooper straight for a reason!! Why change it for BTCC.

redshoes · 31 Mar 2008, 07:53 (Ref:2165871)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen Green

Alan Gow has no control over when the safety car is deployed, it is the decision of the Clerk of the Course

Whilst in principal that is true, you can not deny that the CoC will be under pressure to make certain decisions, even if Gow isn't even standing in the room at the time.

It's not a situation unique to motorsport, similar pressures exist for almost every major sporting event. Look at any big football / rugby tournament and referees will be told in advance the sort of things they should be clamping down on and the sort of things they can let go.

For the most part I don't have a problem with the way the safety car is used in BTCC. If we take the 2nd SC in the 3rd race - at the time the call was made it seemed that Shedden was stranded in a dangerous place. In my view the call for the SC was the correct thing to do. The fact that by the time the SC was deployed Shedden had restarted the car and had the good sense to move it to an area of safety doesn't change that the fact that it was the correct call at the time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen Green

If any of you marshal at race meetings (Rosie excepted) you would have known how dangerous it would have been to have gone trackside to help out.
..the decision .. is ALWAYS taken on the grounds of safety either for the driver or marshals/recover/rescue crews

We keep hearing the 'safety is paramount' line, and I total support that. Doesn't matter is we are talking about marshals, drivers or spectators, safety should be paramount.

My problem isn't so much with the use of the SC during BTCC races but it's lack of use in support races. As we've already said, in the Clio race there was a car left in what at best was a marginal position. If you adopt the 'safety is paramount' attitude then you must err on the side of caution and send the SC out so that the stricken car can be removed.

Trouble was it wasn't just the position that was marginal, it was the timetable. We were already a few mins behind schedule - the SC would have extended the race and pushed the BTCC race (live on TV don't forget) beyond it's scheduled start time.

It's not the first time this has happened. A couple of years back we had a big crash in the opening laps of a Clio race. A couple of cars were in the barriers and one had even vaulted the tyrewall. I'm convinced that at any other meeting the red flags would have been immediately thrown and the race stopped. But again the resultant delay would have meant missing the scheduled BTCC start time.

The 'safety' argument is fine if it's consistently upheld.

**Stephen Green** · 31 Mar 2008, 08:11 (Ref:2165885)

Fair point about the support races Nigel.

mini1400 · 31 Mar 2008, 08:21 (Ref:2165892)

Quote:

Originally Posted by redshoes

Trouble was it wasn't just the position that was marginal, it was the timetable. We were already a few mins behind schedule - the SC would have extended the race and pushed the BTCC race (live on TV don't forget) beyond it's scheduled start time.

Hmmm... The second and third races had delayed starts to fit in with the TV schedules, not the other way round...

Hazard · 31 Mar 2008, 10:37 (Ref:2166014)

Quote:

Originally Posted by redshoes

My problem isn't so much with the use of the SC during BTCC races but it's lack of use in support races. As we've already said, in the Clio race there was a car left in what at best was a marginal position. If you adopt the 'safety is paramount' attitude then you must err on the side of caution and send the SC out so that the stricken car can be removed.

Completely agree with the Clio incident. I actually thought the race would be spoiled because all the pass moves were being tried through Druids, but that stranded Clio caused a yellow flag which meant Druids was out of bounds - so it was effectively spoiling the race.

To my amazement, they then WITHDREW the yellow with the car still there! Hoorah, passings back but instead of gravel trap, if you fluff it meet metal!

Foolish.

**Stephen Green** · 31 Mar 2008, 10:43 (Ref:2166024)

After so many laps the yellow flag is withdrawn and replaced by a hazzard board. I hope that explains the flag removal?

Hazard · 31 Mar 2008, 10:47 (Ref:2166028)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen Green

After so many laps the yellow flag is withdrawn and replaced by a hazzard board. I hope that explains the flag removal?

I saw the board...is overtaking allowed under this board?

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