Latest MSA rules for Under 18`s

zakeriath · 29 Jul 2009, 11:31 (Ref:2510667)

http://www.msauk.org/uploadedfiles/m...als_policy.pdf

Bodysnatcher · 29 Jul 2009, 12:08 (Ref:2510697)

So, does point 1.4 mean that post chiefs and/or IOs have to be deemed suitable by the parent/guardian/carer to look after the young uns?
As opposed to the club.

My view - rather not have them on my post, too much of a legal minefield. Sorry and all that.
YMTD

zakeriath · 29 Jul 2009, 12:24 (Ref:2510715)

Only if you accept the responsibility before hand, its up to you

Middle_BBG · 29 Jul 2009, 12:41 (Ref:2510730)

I'll have my 16 yr old great nephew on post for speed events, but not for circuit racing.

aland · 29 Jul 2009, 14:16 (Ref:2510800)

it could be a legal minefield with the present compensation culture and paranoia about child abuse. IMO between 16 and 18 is the most ropey as the young adults should have the skills to work on the bank in terms of being alert and fitness, they will also learn about teamwork and responsibility. the under 16's are more vunerable in the paddock and even if every marshal the person comes into contact with has passed a disclosure scotland/criminal record check there is still the members of the public, competitors and support crews. if the under 16 is under total responsibility of the responsible adult fine but it only takes 5 minutes for an undesirable act to happen

of course 20 years ago this never came into it, from the age of 13 i was away doing railway exhibitions (get the trainspotter jokes over with) working with the public and travelling with guys from my club, there was trust there as my parents knew some of the guys i was with. the

when a member of my club was convicted of sexual abuse with 2 young club members (not me). still the lads in the club gave him justice when the judge didnt

this could be a very sticky subject

Dave Brand · 29 Jul 2009, 14:50 (Ref:2510817)

Don't panic! As far as I can see there's nothing new here - just formalising existing policy.

I have no problems with under-18s on post - the practice of the under-18 being on the same post as, but not necessarily paired with, his/her nominated guardian works well.

Dean Watson · 29 Jul 2009, 15:42 (Ref:2510852)

all thats required is common sense,

my daughter is 16 and will turn 17 on Saturday, she has worked on the bank numerous occasions the first being the 2cv 24 hr last year 2 days after her 16th birthday, she has worked the bank on the 24 hr britcar plus many smaller club meetings and mosrt recently was involved in 2 live oil dressings under safety car at the Silverstone Classic as well as flagging (including blue). She will be on post with me at the BTCC this weekend and again at the 2 cv 24 hr next weekend. In total she has 3 years experience and has worked many areas from racecontrol through assembly and track, and there are mant marshals at Cadwell who because of her experience want her to go on post with them so they can learn from her and also teach her different track related skills.

I have no problem with her working on post with any observer/post chief as if I dont know them my dad more than likely will and I find this throughout the ranks of marshaling. The 6 degrees of seperation is much closer in the world of orange.

I had to laugh when told at Silverstone that under 18's are accepted providing they have experience, now how is that experience going to gained with out doing the job?

I know of a marshal who posts here, who is only 18 yet he has the experience and the grading as IO and from what I have seen of him on track he is a damned good IO, he also holds the grade experienced specialist.

What would have happened to this young lads commitment and enthusiasm if he turned up at sign on and was told sorry your only 17 you can only work in paddock?

We need to encourage more youngsters in to marshaling as none of us are getting any younger.

Apply common sense,
do not put your selves in any position that may compromise you.
If you are not happy as a post chief to take responsibility for an under 18 make it clear.

have trust in your team to watch out for each other both on and off the track,

Alan.F · 29 Jul 2009, 18:43 (Ref:2511052)

I think that if my son was told he had to do the paddock after spending 18 months on the bank with me he would stop coming till next season when he turns 18 , Also next season i will have my daughter with me she will be 16 and a half what happens now with these rules?

Bodysnatcher · 29 Jul 2009, 19:34 (Ref:2511107)

OK, those of you that seem to be in favour of this change are being pretty specific in that the parent/guardian/carer is also a marshal and in the most part on post with the youngster. In fact for the majority it is your child.
Fair enough, this would not (usually) be a problem for me. Who though has the ultimate responsibility on post, post chief or carer?

What I really don't like is the idea of the adult NOT being a marshal, yet being the person that in the wording of the MSA must ensure the person in charge of the post or team is caring suitably for the young one.

lifted from the document
(1.4.The parent/guardian or temporary carer in attendance at the event has the responsibility to ensure the adequate supervision of the young person throughout the event.)

I feel that this choice of wording allows the p/g/temp to take action if they feel the supervision is inadequate. (karting parent syndrome anyone?)

There are age limits for many things in life - sex/drink/driving/marriage/voting, so why must the boundaries for marshalling be pushed now?

Dean Watson · 29 Jul 2009, 20:13 (Ref:2511135)

I see where you are coming from, the ultimate person with responsibility on post is the post chief, this is where the parent/gaurdian then has to ensure that the post chief is qualified to undertake that position, if not then they should not permit the U18 to go on that post, once the u18's parent /gaurdian has ok'ed the allocation then there should be no room for comebacks, the chief marshal also has a responsibility to ensure the U18 is allocated with a suitable post chief.

But to be fair there are not many U18's who dont already have a parent/guardian marshaling. Those that dont are usualy looked after by either someone they know or other relative/ family friend.

I personaly think it is all PC and H&S gone over board. When I started out at 18 my sister was 12 and acted as runner, then moved into the paddock at 13 and trackside dealing with incidents at 16, there was none of these issues back then.

welshgal_2006 · 29 Jul 2009, 20:33 (Ref:2511155)

This is all of what I understood for under18s anyway.

I was witness to under18s working on Sunday at an event and fund that they got bored quite easily and almost as if they didn't want to be there. Epecially at the end when the event was going on for a long time due to weather conditions.

I would take responsibility for any cadet marshall whom I knew from circumstances outside of marshalling. I have been in situations where young marshalls have been present and really don't want to be there and it is very hard to work a paddock with children who don't want to be there.

Mark Mitchell · 29 Jul 2009, 20:59 (Ref:2511177)

If what I think (From reading this thread) is that as an Observer, I am to be responsible for an U-18 then I will not accept that!
In fact I would refuse to accept responsibility for anyone on post with me!

I marshal for fun.......it's already turned into an office job........so to have responsibility (In the legal terms of the word) I will walk away from Observing.

I hope I have mis-interpreted the wording.

Bodysnatcher · 29 Jul 2009, 21:20 (Ref:2511194)

Mark, I'm not actually all that worried, as local policies can still be applied.
Let's face it, a good chief is not going to lumber you with a child (legal definition) if that's not what you want.
Some young ones will be good, some won't, that's how it goes in life. I just feel that having a non-marshal judging what is good or bad for their little precious is not what I want.
By all means lets bring our sons/daughters/stepkids/great nephews or whatever with us if they've caught the bug, just don't expect me to babysit yours.
(PS mine did'nt come till she turned 18, and actually when she was on post with me I found it a little bit more of a strain than normal)
If you read this dear just remember the minor strop when I told you to go and sweep the track

Dean Watson · 29 Jul 2009, 21:49 (Ref:2511228)

Mark, as an observer/post chief you are responsible for the entire team on your post, you are the "senior" grade on post most times, so with that said you are "in charge" of the team you are "responsible" for what they do and dont do. This is why we have the grading structure in place, to determine the experience and place the responsibilities in the correct places.

Now I perfectly understand your not wanting to take responsibility of an U18, and no one can force you to, as you rightly say we are volunteers. But in your job if you were asked to take a trainee with you for a few days, and that trainee was U18 would you refuse then? hypathetically as I beleive that U18's are not able to work in your line of work.

I as a parent of one 17 year old trainee with three years experience (as previously explained) and a 14 year old cadet with 1 year experience ( of racecontrol and paddock) Would not expect anyone to "baby sit" them, I of course have asked those in paddock/assembly if James could work with them and would they mind keeping an eye on him, but if they said no then that would be it james would sit and watch. I even had one assembly marshal at Silverstone this weekend come up to me in the queue for sign on and ask if she could countersign him so they could go and get a head start with the first race. As for Stephanie my first suggestion or request is she goes on post with me, now if another observer or IO asks for her to go with them then based on my knowledge of the person and the agreement of the chief it happens.

All that is needed is a common sense approach to this, no body can or will force anybody in to a situation they do not feel comfortable with.

I am not trying to cause arguments, or singal any one out I am trying to give my views as 1, a parent, 2, an observer/ post chief, 3 a chief marshal

Oscar114 · 29 Jul 2009, 22:03 (Ref:2511234)

This all stems from The Children's Act of 1999 and revision in 2004.
I'm involved in a Dads and Kids group and we have just become self-managing. Even though we have responsibility for our own children at the group we need to have a child protection policy,nominated members attend a child protection awareness course and be CRB (criminal records bureau) checked.

Children are classed as upto 18yrs and this will be the reason for the updates.

welshgal_2006 · 30 Jul 2009, 06:40 (Ref:2511408)

It is all fair enough when you are looking after your own children on your own post. That is perfectly fine to me.
I just do not think it is always fair when you are on a post/paddock where you have children who are signed on as cadets who don't want to be there and have been bought along because parents have no where else to take them and they then feel forced to do the work... therefore not wanting to do it at all.
Looking after a top paddock at a hill is hard enough in it's own rights when you have got a team of adult marshals who know what they are doing, to have a cadet marshal who doesn't want to be there makes your job a lot harder.
I have a 15 year old cousin who wants to come with me, but i am am still unsure about taking him because if he gets bored, then what do i do with him?

Dave Brand · 30 Jul 2009, 08:33 (Ref:2511464)

. . . and this particular horse was flogged to death here:

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=106306

I stand to be corrected, but as far as I can see all this new document is doing is placing on record current practice & making information on existing policy publicly available. I can see nothing in the document which prescribes any changes to the way we work now & have been since the start of last season.